op lacks reading comprehension. wrote: Yes he did have to run 3:00 or faster to be auto-qualified. Right now he’s only qualified because of his marathon, not auto-qualified.
What's the difference between qualified and auto-qualified?
OP this seems fairly simple. You have qualified. Legally they surely can't win their case if this gets to a court. Whether they made a mistake with their language or however they messed up, that is not your problem.
Send them an email saying you will sue them, involve CAS, etc if they don't give you automatic entry/if you don't get on the team. Don't waste time arguing or pleading your case if after the first 1-2 emails you aren't getting anywhere. Just say it bluntly and clearly that you will sue.
If it does come down to it I imagine a bunch of lawyers would do the case pro bono because you are clearly in the right, but I can't imagine USATF letting it go that far.
OP: 5 pages of complaining about the USATF 50k Team management is going to, at best, make for a very awkward time in South Africa this May. Lin is a great human and I know a couple people in this thread would attest to that, so I'm not sure what you're hoping to accomplish here.
Sub 3 has always been the A standard for this race as they are looking for competitive people that can run fast beyond the marathon. Sometimes the weather is pretty bad at the champs because its in NY in March and those years they have been kind to accepting good marathoners. Still, I've made the team twice and turned down a team once and the entire team was sub 3, both times. Your marathon PR is LIKELY to get you in, but if 6 dudes run sub 3 at Caumsett this year (VERY unlikely) you're out of luck.
If I were you I'd delete this thread and seek out a Euro 50k to do because with your PR a sub 3 is quite easy. I ran a 2:52 in Sketchers in the snow. Otherwise you're really not coming off looking great here dude
I have to agree that Lin is a fantastic person and a VOLUNTEER. She doesn't have to be doing this. She is a huge asset to the sport.
I agree with everything ERS said and as someone who has been on this team before I can't imagine a world in which you wouldn't make the team based on your resume.
If she was really such a great human she wouldnt behave the way she has. Her actions and words show her to not be a great human. Perhaps this is an isolated incident, i dont know, but she should take responsibility on behalf of her organisation's failings, apologise, and give this guy his deserved place on the team without wasting any more of his time.
He already did that and they moved the goalposts. Why would you trust them the second time after they have already broken their word and screwed you over.
I agree it is not a great look for USATF. Op is perfectly entitled to make this thread to get advice and to highlight what a farce this organisation is so other people know what they are letting themselves in for when they try and qualify for a team!
While it initially seemed like the rules were changed - it does now seem like the rules were just incorrectly written. I don’t think there are ill intentions, so I don’t think we need to debate anyones character (and I regret answering whoever asked for the person who emailed me). I do believe the responses I received were rude and uncalled for, but I’m sure the representative must have just had a bad day.
What has become clear is that people who have been on the team or know the director personally understand some unwritten rule which the rest of us are unaware of. I don’t think that’s how national team selection should go.
While it initially seemed like the rules were changed - it does now seem like the rules were just incorrectly written. I don’t think there are ill intentions, so I don’t think we need to debate anyones character (and I regret answering whoever asked for the person who emailed me). I do believe the responses I received were rude and uncalled for, but I’m sure the representative must have just had a bad day.
What has become clear is that people who have been on the team or know the director personally understand some unwritten rule which the rest of us are unaware of. I don’t think that’s how national team selection should go.
I can't speak for the 50k distance but other ultradistances always had a minimum performance/time for the Championship winners. The reason is, that USATF Championships are not very competitive. The 24 hour USATF Championship is always in Ohio and 80-90% of the runners are from Ohio or surrunding states. It's not much of a Championship to begin with.
(1) Acknowledge the confusing qualification wording and tell OP he is qualified. According to posters more familiar with the US 50k team, it seems like OP is more than fast enough to be included as an at-large selection anyway.
(2) Clarify the qualification criteria for future participants. (Although I think it is dumb to have a championship race where time also matters. The reason these championships are non-competitive is because there are insufficient rewards for winning.)
I can only see two reasons for not doing this... either USATF as a matter of principle wants to double down that their qualification wording should have been obvious (which is dumb and risks a lawsuit), or USATF wants to keep OP out so that they can select only the people they like for the team. This would be disappointing but not at all surprising given USATF's past history. Hopefully this thread does something to hold them accountable but I won't hold my breath.
If the procedures were clearly written to reflect what USATF is now claiming they intended, they would simply say "Win the USATF National Championship with a time under 3hrs or a marathon split under 2:20"
They wouldn't have written "50k road or track" or given eligible marathon courses to meet the time standard if the only event that actually mattered was the National Championship.
Sure, he probably has a very realistic shot at making the team regardless given his credentials. That's immaterial because the point contested is that he has AUTOMATICALLY qualified and should not have to go through the highly political committee process (which would, even before this thread, disfavor a relative newcomer to the scene).
The OP making the team through committee based on his accomplishments would be great for him, but ultimately a band-aid solution. The real issue is the misleading and seemingly heavily biased (and most importantly, changed at the last minute) criterion USATF has decided to use as the auto qualification.
No, the problem is you. The procedures are clearly written.
Do you also think the US 5k team for Olympics/Worlds should be chosen by committee? The winner rarely runs under the necessary standard for qualification in the US championship race.
Reading through this is really bumming me out. Do people really lack reading comprehension to this degree? OP appears to be a GRAD STUDENT???
The goal posts were not changed. This has always been the rule. Even if you wil you have ti run under 3:00. For JFK 50 it was 6:00. Look at years of internet archives. The National 50k Champs is a small race where maybe 3-5 guys show up that could run under 3 hours. Sometimes less (none last year). No one wants someone winning in 3:15 against a thin field to be on the national team. Comparing it to the Olympic Trials is INSANE.
I can't tell if the confidentiality incorrect people talking about their expertise in legal documents and probable scenarios involving legal teams are just trolling or not thinking.
Sure, he probably has a very realistic shot at making the team regardless given his credentials. That's immaterial because the point contested is that he has AUTOMATICALLY qualified and should not have to go through the highly political committee process (which would, even before this thread, disfavor a relative newcomer to the scene).
The OP making the team through committee based on his accomplishments would be great for him, but ultimately a band-aid solution. The real issue is the misleading and seemingly heavily biased (and most importantly, changed at the last minute) criterion USATF has decided to use as the auto qualification.
"Highly political committee process" really?
I never heard of a controversy picking somebody for the ultramarathon national team but of course I am not a USATF insider.
By the way, didn't realize you maintained LACCTiC. Good stuff
The qualification criteria were updated:
trail-news/2023-iau-50-kilometer-world-championship-team-usa-selection/ (on trail runner dot com)
(if you google it you should be able to find the new criteria, letsrun won’t let me post a link)
The new language describes standards more clearly. I consider that a partial win - at least others won’t be lead astray by unwritten rules.
The committee I appealed to never got back to me. When I followed up I was told to only communicate through the team leader who had dismissed me previously. The new language in the qualification rules seems to suggest they mean to leave me off the team. I appreciate the support, but I’m not sure I have the energy to fight this anymore.
By the way, didn't realize you maintained LACCTiC. Good stuff
The qualification criteria were updated:
trail-news/2023-iau-50-kilometer-world-championship-team-usa-selection/ (on trail runner dot com)
(if you google it you should be able to find the new criteria, letsrun won’t let me post a link)
The new language describes standards more clearly. I consider that a partial win - at least others won’t be lead astray by unwritten rules.
The committee I appealed to never got back to me. When I followed up I was told to only communicate through the team leader who had dismissed me previously. The new language in the qualification rules seems to suggest they mean to leave me off the team. I appreciate the support, but I’m not sure I have the energy to fight this anymore.
Any update on this?
Did they leave you off the team or not?
Edit to add, the OP probably doesn't know yet. Looks like the team will be selected July 31 to August 1, 2023 and announced on August 2nd. But from the list of current auto-qualifiers and the "next best" list it doesn't look good, unless I'm missing something.
This post was edited 8 minutes after it was posted.
trail-news/2023-iau-50-kilometer-world-championship-team-usa-selection/ (on trail runner dot com)
(if you google it you should be able to find the new criteria, letsrun won’t let me post a link)
The new language describes standards more clearly. I consider that a partial win - at least others won’t be lead astray by unwritten rules.
The committee I appealed to never got back to me. When I followed up I was told to only communicate through the team leader who had dismissed me previously. The new language in the qualification rules seems to suggest they mean to leave me off the team. I appreciate the support, but I’m not sure I have the energy to fight this anymore.
Any update on this?
Did they leave you off the team or not?
Edit to add, the OP probably doesn't know yet. Looks like the team will be selected July 31 to August 1, 2023 and announced on August 2nd. But from the list of current auto-qualifiers and the "next best" list it doesn't look good, unless I'm missing something.
Wondering too. This whole things seems sad for OP :(