i don’t really mind runners choosing to run as non binary, but it’s frustrating to see prize money rewarded for athletic achievements that are ordinary. This is one of the biggest running events on the planet. How was a loophole created that someone barely breaking 3:10 and being beaten by hundreds of people one of the only 22 able bodied runners to receive prize money. When you have so many athletes who performed better get nothing.
There are more than 22 able bodied runners who received prize money. In addition to 20 in the open divisions, there is prize money for top five American men and American women, top three Masters, top five NYRR members, and top four NYRR masters, assuming they were under 3:10.
For example, Lindsay Flanagan in 11th overall received prime money as one of the top five Americans. That's why the article mentions Gerda Steyn in 12th place, instead of Flanagan, as the fastest woman who didn't get any money.
Races are based on sex not gender. These “non binary” men and women and gender ideology activists need to grow up and accept the fact and reality. You’re a male or a female and we have categories for that. You’re not special for putting a label on yourself. Thank you for reading common sense.
Surprised no one has mention intersex athletes competing in the non-binary category. Might be clueless but wouldn’t they technically be non-binary?
Most intersex people (or people with DSD) identify as either male or female. And in many cases, their identity does not match their karyotype. (e.g., XY people self-identifying and socially accepted as female.)
Races are based on sex not gender. These “non binary” men and women and gender ideology activists need to grow up and accept the fact and reality. You’re a male or a female and we have categories for that. You’re not special for putting a label on yourself. Thank you for reading common sense.
"Since I was raised in a society that linguistically classifies people into one of two genders I believe there are only two genders. When my beliefs are challenged I'll lash out at others because I'm immature."
Linguistically, gender means masculine, feminine or neuter.
Sports categories have always been based on sex, not gender. When the AAU and race orgs like NYRR banned women from US road running events, they did so based on our sex. Back then, the word gender wasn't widely used as euphemistic proxy for sex. That's something that's only happened and become normalized in the course of the past 30 years.
Also, in the USA and other countries, people have traditionally been legally classified by sex, not gender. When women in the US were barred from voting, not allowed to hold certain jobs or enter certain professions, and unable to get credit cards and loans without a male co-signer, it was because of our sex - not gender (or gender identity or gender expression).
When it was legal for publicly-funded schools in the US not to provide female students with any school sports or PE and to bar us from taking certain academic classes, it was because of our sex.
Even today when the Biden administration and Democratic Party are pushing for US laws and policies to classify US citizens and residents by claimed gender identity and gender expression rather than actual sex in many contexts such as school toilets and locker rooms, shelters, and prisons, the Biden admin still takes the view that when it comes to one area - national defense - sex still matters and it trumps gender. Which is why the US federal government still requires males who say they "identify as" girls/women like Jazz Jennings, Lia Thomas, Terry Miller, Andraya Yearwood, June Eastwood and CeCe Telfer - and males who say they "identify as" non-binary like the runners who won in the NB category in the NYC Marathon - to register with the Selective Service from age 18 through 25.
Why does this enrage you so much? is this really the most important thing going on in the world? What do you hope to accomplish by these constant old man yells at clouds rants?
He's just publishing his opinion on his website. I agree with the views and raise the fact that gender identity seems more of a convenience at times. Nikki Hiltz is pretty adamant about her pronouns until she is racing......then she is woman. She entered in the Fifth Avenue Mile as.........a woman. So very hypocritical to enter into a gender you have stated that you do not identify as. Makes no sense.
Interesting. So, you are saying that if I were to objectively measure every person's biological phenotype (let's say hormone levels for simplicity), there would be absolutely no overlap between any biologically born males and bioloigcally born females (omitting XXY, XYY, etc.)? There surely is. Now, given the known associations between hormones and physical health, physical development, and brain behavior, it would stand to reason that within that overlap, there would be individuals who had similar physical attributes, behaviors, etc. Could we then imagine that one, while biologically male, would feel, act, behave, etc. as a female? And in that case, it isn't a choice, but a direct consequence of their biology?
This is about prize money, not about the category existing. The original story and many of the posters seem to be saying that non-binary is a bad category that shouldn't exist.
When a person signs up for a race, they can check the box for male or female. If a person doesn't want to be labeled into those categories, there should be a "no classification" or "non-binary" category. They have a right to exist, a right to run a race, and a right to not be labeled into a category. Those are basic human rights.
But do they have a right to prize money? When women point out they should get equal pay for sports, the main arguments are that they are 50 percent of the population, do the same work, and are a clearly defined category. As the story points out, non-binary is not clearly defined and is a small percent of the population. So what reason is there for prize money? I say none, other than the race organizers want to promote that category.
Race forms don't have religion categories, but they do have age categories. We don't give prize money to age categories, although there is nothing wrong with doing that if the race organizers choose to.
So this is really about who we choose to recognize and celebrate in a race event. Organizers could include an Asian category, LGBTQ category or Baptist category if they think there is a reason for it. It is a sign of the times that they are choosing non-binary to celebrate, mostly because it is a real category that has not been recognized in the past. So yes, there is wokeness and virtue-signalling involved, but at least they are siding with freedom of expression. Many of the posters here are procrustean, on the side of forcing people into categories.
procrustean: marked by arbitrary often ruthless disregard of individual differences or special circumstances Procrustes: a villainous son of Poseidon in Greek mythology who forces travelers to fit into his bed by stretching their bodies or cutting off their legs
Do you think it's "a basic human right" for people not to be labelled according to our biological sex category in all contexts including medical care? Or just in some contexts like sports events?
If it really were "a basic human right" for people not to be labelled according to our biological sex category, then how come FINA - the governing body for competitive swimming and diving - has been allowed to put in place new rules requiring mandatory DNA sex testing for all minor-age and adult athletes worldwide subject to FINA regulations? I watched the presentation that FINA officials gave introducing the new rules, and none of the many human rights lawyers who were involved in crafting and approving the new rules seemed to think the FINA policy abridges "a basic human right."
Also, I find it a bit rich that right after criticizing others for "forcing people into categories" you did the same thing to poor old Procrustes.
If it's okay for you to use sex-based words like "son" and "his" in reference to a fictional figure in Greek mythology, how come you think it's unfair, old-fashioned, unreasonable and "ruthless" for others like me to note that RL people like the non-binary runners Jake Caswell and Zack Harris are male and that as such they have the same sex-based advantages in sports that all healthy, fit, able-bodied males their age have?
Since you were so kind to provide the definition for procrustean - "marked by arbitrary often ruthless disregard of individual differences or special circumstances" - I will do you a kindness in turn and share that the definition of arbitrary is "based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system."
You really think that classification by sex in sport is "based on random choice or personal whim rather than any reason or system" but classification by gender identity is based on reason, logic and science? To me, the total reverse is the case.
Also, please spell out exactly what you think are the "individual differences or special circumstances" that make Jake Caswell and Zack Harris not male? Or somehow less male than other blokes? What's so different and special about these guys that I am and others are "ruthless" for not noticing and paying regard to? I hope you are not suggesting that males who are same-sex attracted and sometimes wear colored nail lacquer and crop tops aren't real men. Because that's the kind of homophobia I thought most grown men got over ages ago.
As the story points out, non-binary is not clearly defined and is a small percent of the population. So what reason is there for prize money? I say none, other than the race organizers want to promote that category.
Race forms don't have religion categories, but they do have age categories. We don't give prize money to age categories, although there is nothing wrong with doing that if the race organizers choose to.
So this is really about who we choose to recognize and celebrate in a race event. Organizers could include an Asian category, LGBTQ category or Baptist category if they think there is a reason for it. It is a sign of the times that they are choosing non-binary to celebrate, mostly because it is a real category that has not been recognized in the past. So yes, there is wokeness and virtue-signalling involved, but at least they are siding with freedom of expression. Many of the posters here are procrustean, on the side of forcing people into categories.
procrustean: marked by arbitrary often ruthless disregard of individual differences or special circumstances Procrustes: a villainous son of Poseidon in Greek mythology who forces travelers to fit into his bed by stretching their bodies or cutting off their legs
Fancy word usage notwithstanding, that term “procrustean” is inherently contradictory in this context because your argument is seemingly forcing them into a binary categorization. In case you meant to say that you were not among those forcing, you implicitly acknowledge that there are people who belong in a different category than the two historically and widely recognized ones that exist primarily for the purpose awarding prize money, recognition, and future opportunity.
I'm way over on the left on most issues but this "gender identity" movement or recognition of is getting over the top. I think every one should be able to run and race. If the non binary want to recognize each other, or recognize nothing, their "community" can set up there own race, get sponsors etc. Maybe going forward the NYRR and other can simply state on the sign up, "We honor and recognize the diversity of our culture however [fill in the blank] and ease their way out of paying the money and controversy of the n.b.
PS I was in the Marines and I don't think identifying as non binary would go over well with the DI's.
Agreed. And it is getting out of hand. For one reason- it's one sided. No where are women becoming men and dominating in sports. But a male now can say he "identifies" as a woman, and takes $$$$ that he does not deserve!
everyone that says it's ok, and ecpect people to show support. These same people change in a heartbeat, when their daughter lines up in a track meet against a muscular male, who "identifies" as a female.
Interesting. So, you are saying that if I were to objectively measure every person's biological phenotype (let's say hormone levels for simplicity), there would be absolutely no overlap between any biologically born males and bioloigcally born females (omitting XXY, XYY, etc.)? There surely is. Now, given the known associations between hormones and physical health, physical development, and brain behavior, it would stand to reason that within that overlap, there would be individuals who had similar physical attributes, behaviors, etc. Could we then imagine that one, while biologically male, would feel, act, behave, etc. as a female? And in that case, it isn't a choice, but a direct consequence of their biology?
Which hormones specifically are you taking about here?
Humans make a number of different hormones - 50 have been identified so far. In the case of some hormones like thyroid hormones, there is similarity and overlap between the natural levels found in the two sexes. In the case of other hormones such as insulin there are differences in the normal levels secreted by males and females.
In the case of sex hormones such as progesterone, estrogen, testosterone and human chorionic gonadotropin hormone (hCG), there is no overlap between the sexes. AFAIK, males don't make progesterone and no male child, adolescent or adult has ever been found to make or have hCG. Because hCG is made by the placenta during pregnancy.
Both males and females naturally make estrogen and testosterone at different stages of life. But not in the same ways, and not in the same amounts. The only way a female could make testosterone in a range approaching the bottom end of the normal range for infant boys, adolescent boys and grown men would be if she had a life-threatening cancerous tumor - or she were pregnant and developed a rare kind of ovarian tumor that occurs every once in a while during pregnancy but is not life-threatening.
Similarly, if a male were to make estrogen in anywhere near the same amount that girls and women of childbearing age do during our monthly cycles, he would have a serious health problem that urgently needs medical investigation.
Also, whilst both sexes have androgen receptors (ARs) and estrogen receptors (ERs), male and female ARs and ERs are different in number, location, function and behavior. Which means that even when males and females make the exact same natural sex hormones, our bodies respond to them and utilize them differently.
This is why women who have higher than usual levels of natural testosterone due to conditions like PCOS and pregnancy don't obtain physical benefits from them that lead to advantages in athletics the way some girls and women get athletic benefits from doping on exogenous T. Girls and women who have high natural T due to PCOS have a host of health problems, and usually are overweight. During pregnancy, when women's natural T level goes up considerably, women do not show a tendency to pack on extra muscle or gain cardiovascular benefits that make us better in sports.
As for sex hormones, brains and behavior: male mammals including humans all naturally convert some of the testosterone their testes produce to estrogen through aromatization in certain tissues and organs. One of the places that male mammals including humans automatically convert some of their testosterone into estrogen is the brain (another place is in the testes and in the glands and ducts of the male reproductive tract).
The research on the impact of estrogen on males shows a variety amongst different mammal species. But overall, estrogen has been found to be just as important as testosterone is to the "masculinization" of male brains and to males developing stereotypically "masculine" behaviors such as territory-marking, aggressiveness, getting erections and experiencing urges to rut/have penetrative sex.
An interesting bit of info many people are not aware of: Because the human male gonads make testosterone and convert some of it into estrogen even into old age, but the human female gonads stop making estrogen at menopause, teenage boys and grown men have higher natural estrogen levels than women past 50.
The entire problem, IMHO, is that the argument being made by Rojo is a false correlation. The creation of a non-binary category takes nothing away from women's athletics. There is no discrimination, nor is there an aggrieved group, other than the biological equity brigade on Let's run. The entire thing is a dog whistle.
There is an argument to be made, and one which I also tend to agree with, along the lines of precluding biological males to compete against biological females if they identify as such. There's a distinct advantage. While it may appear at face value that the distinction between male and female is beyond straightforward for most of the population, there are instances that require clarification and I'm relatively convinced that over time, a more encompassing set of regulations or guidelines will be derived that makes the "biological" baselines (male, female, non-binary, trans, etc) more equitable in terms of competing with a particular group. The example being a person with one arm and a person with one leg are categorized differently in the para-olympics.
Most people on this thread recognize this. Anyone who's been a serious competitor, male or female, recognize this. I don't think there's that much dispute on it... but that's not what this article is about... it's a reverse racism-esq argument that acts as though having a category with prize money that's not defined by biological sex as being discriminatory towards a group that is. There's nothing that indicates harm or inequity between being in the non-binary or being in the female category... if the person who won the non-binary category ran as a woman... I think you have a point. but that's not the case...
how is this any different than American Only money to promote having more Americans race? Is any different than having masters money based on age? Or what if they included a juggle running category, would that be discriminatory to all non-jugglers, the way running is supposed to be!!!!
If you have a problem with the non-binary category and how you determine who's non-binary and who isn't, sure... but if the argument is that by simply having the category, it's a detriment to women's sports and discriminatory to the biological categories... I think you need to evaluate what you're really angry at and determine if this is really the best use case for that argument. Equating this to something Lia Thomas or Caster Semenya is a false equivalency.
It appears to me, at the end of the day, the real issue is that most of you feel it's a waste of prize money... that's fair... but don't turn it into something it isn't.
You're right that the creation of a non-binary category takes nothing away from women's athletics (so far). But it's still unfair because the new non-binary category has been set up in such a way that it's guaranteed that the podium places and financial prizes will always - or almost always - go to males who say they "identify as" non-binary. Females who identify as non-binary and register and run in the non-binary category are automatically put at a disadvantage whilst males who have or claim to have the same exact gender identity are favored, given a leg up and provided with an extra chance to win that no one else male or female gets.
Moreover, the qualifying times to get into the NYC Marathon in the non-binary category are the same as those for the women's category. Yet the majority of the persons who registered and ran in the non-binary category appear to be males - and of course, the top finishers who got financial prizes are all males too. So NYRR has not just given males an extra chance to win, they've given males an extra chances for easy wins by lowering the eligibility standards for one and only group of males. Why should one group of males and only one group of males be able to enter using the criteria for females just because of how these guys say they conceptualize of themselves?
The only possible way to make this fair is to have two new categories for runners who identify as non-binary - one for male NBs, the other for female NBs.
The same thing would be if new categories were added for trans competitors with altered hormone profiles or for athletes with DSDs. Females who take exogenous T coz they identify as trans and want to look like men still can't compete at the same level as males who take medication to lower their T coz they identify as trans and want to look like women.
Similarly, there's no way that athletes with differences of female sex development such as Turner's syndrome, classic Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia, and MRKH could ever possibly compete at the same level as athletes with differences of male sex development like Caster Semenya, Francine Niyonsaba and Margaret Wambui.
If new categories are going to be added, and new prizes awarded, I think it makes more sense to do it based on material factors that affect people's physical abilities rather than solely on the thoughts they have about themselves in their heads.
Lots of people of both sexes and all ages have physical and mental health problems, take medications, or have had medical interventions and accidents, that don't render them/us disabled but still make it a lot more difficult to participate in and perform well in athletics. I don't see how sports officials can justify creating new categories solely for people who believe in gender identity ideology and have adopted a particular trendy new identity label for themselves and not doing the same for a host of other groups struggling with real physical problems and hardships. Such as diabetics, cancer survivors, allergy sufferers, men who have abnormally low T levels, males and females with DSDs, pregnant women, breastfeeding women, women who've given birth in the past 12-18 months, women with endometriosis and other painful gynecological conditions, women who are going through or have been through menopause.
Having a non binary division doesn't solve the issue of men in women's sports. Two separate issues.
Transwomen can still enter the women's division as they identify as women, not necessarily non binary.
We have 3 categories where XY can win now: Men's, Women's, Non Binary.
One where XX can (possibly): Women's.
The part in bold is a valid one, but NYRR’s is still a step in the right direction. A transwomen acting in good faith might pick the non-binary category as her “fair” peer group. In the future, there may be eligibility requirements beyond just a self declaration. If there is no third category, she has no other option but to compete as a woman.
The rest of stuff about chromosomes implicitly defining XY as male and XX as female is naive if not intersexphobic.
What on earth do you mean by "white nighting"? The phenomena known as airglow or bright nights? Or the midnight sun that occurs in the Arctic and Antarctic circles?
Yes, you don’t seem to know much about it, so I’m surprised you haven’t written six long paragraphs on the northern aurora borealis and poly cystic ovary syndrome while finding a way to castigate and mock the likes of Caster Semenya, and blather self-contradicting blah on XY DSDs to acknowledge that sex isn’t entirely binary even while arguing for the binary; and occasionally sprinkle in babbletalk about terms and cultures like hijrahs that you have no idea about, which is literally as stupid as equating trans with gay like uninformed old conservative folk who just don’t know much do.
I am greatly amused by how much my posts trigger you. Your posts call to my mind the way brogressive misogynists like Vaush, MRAs and males incels constantly invoke gender identity ideology and so-called "transwomen" and "transgirils" to give themselves free passes to be abusive to female people. Vaush and his ilk who call themselves male feminists routinely heap praises on males who LARP as females whilst calling female people "dumb cxnts" and "stupid bxtches."
How is human/mammalian sex not binary? What are the names of the additional gametes beyond egg and sperm?
What are the names of the human sex chromosomes other than X and Y?
I have never castigated or mocked "the likes of Caster Semenya" for having DMSDs. I've just pointed out that they are not "women with high testosterone" or "female athletes with hyperandrogenism" as they are commonly described in the media. I've said in plain language that males with differences/disorders of male sex development such as XY 5-ARD - which caused Semenya and others to be born with missing, minuscule or malformed penises and their testes in an unexpected location - are not female.
I have taken issue with Semenya, Niyonsaba and others with DMSDs in women's sports for their dishonesty and often arrogant, totally self-interested behavior. I have criticized Semenya in particular for Semenya's many misogynistic statements, Semenya's lying and gaslighting, and Semenya's blatant grifting such as Semenya headlining conferences on women's rights and Semenya serving as the public face and brand ambassador for South African-made menstrual cups and menstrual health and hygiene.
I have also commented that it's very likely that Semenya is the biological father of the two female children that Semenya's female wife Violet Raseboya has given birth to in the past several years.
“Surprised no one has mention intersex athletes competing in the non-binary category. Might be clueless but wouldn’t they technically be non-binary?“
I did on page 2 but nobody’s listening and their so caught up in being heard, that they are just talking past each other in stead of seeing the multitude of angles on this topic
“Surprised no one has mention intersex athletes competing in the non-binary category. Might be clueless but wouldn’t they technically be non-binary?“
I did on page 2 but nobody’s listening and their so caught up in being heard, that they are just talking past each other in stead of seeing the multitude of angles on this topic
But the only contentious issue around athletes with DSDs in sports has been about athletes with disorders/differences of male sex development like Caster Semenya and Barbra Banda participating and competing in female sports.
No one has ever had a problem with athletes with disorders/differences of female sex development such as Turner's syndrome, MRKH and CAH participating and competing in female sports.
Moreover, over the course of history there have been no cases AFAIK where an athlete with a disorder/difference of female sex development has argued that because she has a DSD she has a right to be in boys' or men's sports.
I am curious as to where the suddenly feminist Rojo stands on the issue of abortion. Rojo appears to be trying to heroically protect the rights of women in athletic competition but at the same time he is cheerleading for Republicans in the elections who would take away the right for a woman to do what she deems best for her own health and welfare. Interesting as hell and if you fall for it you are the dunce.
He probably stands with the innocent female babies (not fetuses) that are in danger everyday of having their brain sucked out while their skulls collapse in the name of “reproductive rights“. Despite being so mainstream in the last 50 years, abortion is one of the most inhumane and disgusting ways of murder. It is currently unlawful to ignore the health of the mother in order to protect the baby, so don’t even try. Furthermore, while a baby is dependent on its mother it is a completely separate life form, with a separate heartbeat, so the whole “my body my choice“ is a complete fallacy.
