I have been quite clear as to exactly what I think. That's all. You can parse it however you want. Not going to engage in a fruitless back and forth. Believe whatever you want.
I have been quite clear as to exactly what I think. That's all. You can parse it however you want. Not going to engage in a fruitless back and forth. Believe whatever you want.
How do reconcile saying in one post that you might cheat if you were an elite runner with saying in another one that you dislike cheaters? Are you denying you said both of those things?
I have been quite clear as to exactly what I think. That's all. You can parse it however you want. Not going to engage in a fruitless back and forth. Believe whatever you want.
How do reconcile saying in one post that you might cheat if you were an elite runner with saying in another one that you dislike cheaters? Are you denying you said both of those things?
Everyone knows there's no hard evidence that BTC and other elite runners are doping. Not to speak for astro, but after reading his posts, I tend to feel the same way. Also, why does he have to reconcile anything? If someone contradicts themselves on the internet because they feel a bit about both topics, that doesn't invalidate their opinion.
You can’t have it both ways. I posted that only people with low character, with the exception of those trying to escape poverty, cheat and that Fisher, because of the effort he’s put into his education, is extremely unlikely to be cheating. You responded by saying even good people will cheat.
There is zero evidence that Nike is bankrolling cheating and having good results from their athletes is not being blatant about doping. In a nutshell, you’re opinion seems to be that doping is OK so long as it’s not a BTC runner.
You keep referring to Houlihan and Schweitzer, but the latter was not busted for doping and that will create reasonable doubt for an juror.
Zero evidence? If Armstrong, Bonds, Houlihan, and Gatlin all add up to zero, then you're still not exactly right. There are many more. Salazar: literally paid by Nike, literally banned for violation of doping rules. Both of those are true of Coleman, too. Other big sponsors would kick these folks to the curb.
Do you not acknowledge that a very high-profile coach was busted at a training camp with syringes filled with EPO? Do you contend that less than 100% of the athletes affiliated with the group and physically at the camp were Nike-sponsored? The highly controversial Rosa and Associates, home of more busts than BTC and AW combined, admittedly, has a Swoosh on the sign in front of their Kenya property. Nike knowingly funds these juice farms.
Nike actually arrainged and paid for Al's defense, as opposed to immediately firing him and very publicly claiming he owes them all he's been paid ever. The last point would, of course, be a charade as opposed to a serious attempt to collect, but it's an excellent look. Nike's actions were as close to the opposite of that as they could be. There is still question whether or not Houlihan has been fired. There is no question what she'll be wearing if and when she resurfaces. She is by no means unwelcome. Gatlin came right back to the Swoosh and their previously-busted coach.
Their lack of attempt to cut ties with or distance themselves from anyone affiliated with them who has actually been caught speaks volumes. Their silence is deafening. If I don't stick to 'has been caught' and move into the officially 'suspected' category, we get Jager, Rupp.... let's just say all Nike-shod. Do you not believe Ritz when he claims he himself broke rules? Did the Gouchers imagine all they allegedly saw?
Your turn:
Give us a list of non-Nike-affiated athletes in any sport who have been actually caught and banned. (Contrary to what Frank imagines, Cierpinski was neither.) Better yet, give us some whose sponsor/employer stuck by their side, neither firing nor condemning them, and welcomed them right back.
It's over. Sorry. If you are confused well I cannot help you and frankly don't care. You are on record as claiming that a runner who is friends and training partners with a convicted doper, who has never denounced her, who ran a time that is historically associated with overt dopers in a TT with the very same disgraced athlete, who just ran the Hassan special at the US Championship, is in no way suspicious, that outside of a positive test or confession there is "no evidence" despite the entire history of doping in sports. Have fun with that lonely take.
Maybe someday Shelby pulls a Floyd Landis and exposes the whole charade. Maybe that explains why the team does not dissassociate from her.
How do reconcile saying in one post that you might cheat if you were an elite runner with saying in another one that you dislike cheaters? Are you denying you said both of those things?
Everyone knows there's no hard evidence that BTC and other elite runners are doping. Not to speak for astro, but after reading his posts, I tend to feel the same way. Also, why does he have to reconcile anything? If someone contradicts themselves on the internet because they feel a bit about both topics, that doesn't invalidate their opinion.
If he’s going to claim that everyone that doesn’t agree with him is naive, then I’m going to point out the inconsistencies in some of his posts and does it make sense for him to dislike people for doing the same thing he would do?
His belief is that Houlihan being busted implicates all of the BTC and Nike as well is just an opinion. I don’t agree, and it doesn’t strengthen his argument to call me naive. He also ignores the comments I make and just keeps posting the same things.
It's over. Sorry. If you are confused well I cannot help you and frankly don't care. You are on record as claiming that a runner who is friends and training partners with a convicted doper, who has never denounced her, who ran a time that is historically associated with overt dopers in a TT with the very same disgraced athlete, who just ran the Hassan special at the US Championship, is in no way suspicious, that outside of a positive test or confession there is "no evidence" despite the entire history of doping in sports. Have fun with that lonely take.
Maybe someday Shelby pulls a Floyd Landis and exposes the whole charade. Maybe that explains why the team does not dissassociate from her.
Anyway, that is my last word on the topic. Bye.
Your 1st paragraph is an opinion. Why can’t you accept that? Of course I don’t care what your opinions are but it makes LR a better forum if posters don’t insult others that don’t have the same opinions.
It's over. Sorry. If you are confused well I cannot help you and frankly don't care. You are on record as claiming that a runner who is friends and training partners with a convicted doper, who has never denounced her, who ran a time that is historically associated with overt dopers in a TT with the very same disgraced athlete, who just ran the Hassan special at the US Championship, is in no way suspicious, that outside of a positive test or confession there is "no evidence" despite the entire history of doping in sports. Have fun with that lonely take.
Maybe someday Shelby pulls a Floyd Landis and exposes the whole charade. Maybe that explains why the team does not dissassociate from her.
Anyway, that is my last word on the topic. Bye.
what if she just wanted to test the wheels? have a little fun in the 1500m? Her performances arent out of the ordinary. The Hassan special isnt really true....she did the 1500/5000 double as did 4-5 other athletes. Maybe shes just a strong American? Be proud of who is representing the US. Go back to your cave.
How do reconcile saying in one post that you might cheat if you were an elite runner with saying in another one that you dislike cheaters? Are you denying you said both of those things?
Everyone knows there's no hard evidence that BTC and other elite runners are doping. Not to speak for astro, but after reading his posts, I tend to feel the same way. Also, why does he have to reconcile anything? If someone contradicts themselves on the internet because they feel a bit about both topics, that doesn't invalidate their opinion.
Guys, a btc runner tested positive for a steroid. yes she’s claiming innocence. Anyone would. I’m going to say it again. A btc runner tested positive for a steroid.
What hard evidence do you need? An Oprah interview???
Everyone knows there's no hard evidence that BTC and other elite runners are doping. Not to speak for astro, but after reading his posts, I tend to feel the same way. Also, why does he have to reconcile anything? If someone contradicts themselves on the internet because they feel a bit about both topics, that doesn't invalidate their opinion.
Guys, a btc runner tested positive for a steroid. yes she’s claiming innocence. Anyone would. I’m going to say it again. A btc runner tested positive for a steroid.
What hard evidence do you need? An Oprah interview???
Is Robinson Cano getting busted for using steroids proof that all of his Mets teammates were also cheating? I’m pretty sure he cheated without the knowledge of the team so why would it be impossible for Houlihan to do the same thing? Your “hard evidence” is no such thing.
Guys, a btc runner tested positive for a steroid. yes she’s claiming innocence. Anyone would. I’m going to say it again. A btc runner tested positive for a steroid.
What hard evidence do you need? An Oprah interview???
Is Robinson Cano getting busted for using steroids proof that all of his Mets teammates were also cheating? I’m pretty sure he cheated without the knowledge of the team so why would it be impossible for Houlihan to do the same thing? Your “hard evidence” is no such thing.
this isn't as good of an analogy as you think it is. Sure not *all* the Mets were cheating, but baseball has a huge steroid issue, and Robbie's bust is an indication that more probably are, especially if they are posting similar numbers to Robbie.
Shelby's positive test is hard evidence of Shelby cheating. Her coaches furiously defending her, continuing to train her, and her teammates supporting her IS evidence that something deeper might be going on. When Lance's competitors at the TdF started going down like flies, didn't that make you feel weird? Jan Ulrich, and so many others were cheats, but Lance, a winner, was...clean?
There are two American women who have run under 14:30. Two, in all of history. They ran it at the same race: a COVID time trial. Shelby got the record; she closed in a 60. Karissa 3 seconds back in 14:26. For years and years no one under 14:30. In fact up until that point only TWO WOMEN under 14:40 (Shelby and Shannon). And then magic! Two just sailed to sub 14:30.
Six months later, Shelby tested positive. Six months after that, she was banned.
It's really really hard for me to believe that the woman on her tail, the woman who is her training partner, the woman who has beaten her, the only other woman to run sub 14:30... is clean.
Karissa, who was with Shelby when she got the email with the test, since supported Shelby, qualified for the Olympic team but ran considerably slower. She wasn't a factor internationally.
She's turned into the type that "just loves running and racing!" Never mind recovery. She ran the 10, 5, 15 emulating Sifan, apparently. After tough rounds of the 15, she came to the five and took it at the mile LEADING a 4:25 before settling for second in the 5. Not nearly as "impressive" as Sifan of course, but Karissa lacks Sifan's natural talent.
Is Robinson Cano getting busted for using steroids proof that all of his Mets teammates were also cheating? I’m pretty sure he cheated without the knowledge of the team so why would it be impossible for Houlihan to do the same thing? Your “hard evidence” is no such thing.
this isn't as good of an analogy as you think it is. Sure not *all* the Mets were cheating, but baseball has a huge steroid issue, and Robbie's bust is an indication that more probably are, especially if they are posting similar numbers to Robbie.
Shelby's positive test is hard evidence of Shelby cheating. Her coaches furiously defending her, continuing to train her, and her teammates supporting her IS evidence that something deeper might be going on. When Lance's competitors at the TdF started going down like flies, didn't that make you feel weird? Jan Ulrich, and so many others were cheats, but Lance, a winner, was...clean?
There are two American women who have run under 14:30. Two, in all of history. They ran it at the same race: a COVID time trial. Shelby got the record; she closed in a 60. Karissa 3 seconds back in 14:26. For years and years no one under 14:30. In fact up until that point only TWO WOMEN under 14:40 (Shelby and Shannon). And then magic! Two just sailed to sub 14:30.
Six months later, Shelby tested positive. Six months after that, she was banned.
It's really really hard for me to believe that the woman on her tail, the woman who is her training partner, the woman who has beaten her, the only other woman to run sub 14:30... is clean.
Karissa, who was with Shelby when she got the email with the test, since supported Shelby, qualified for the Olympic team but ran considerably slower. She wasn't a factor internationally.
She's turned into the type that "just loves running and racing!" Never mind recovery. She ran the 10, 5, 15 emulating Sifan, apparently. After tough rounds of the 15, she came to the five and took it at the mile LEADING a 4:25 before settling for second in the 5. Not nearly as "impressive" as Sifan of course, but Karissa lacks Sifan's natural talent.
Yep and Monson running 14:31 confirmed my suspicions about OAC. Sigh...now there's nobody to cheer for :(
Is Robinson Cano getting busted for using steroids proof that all of his Mets teammates were also cheating? I’m pretty sure he cheated without the knowledge of the team so why would it be impossible for Houlihan to do the same thing? Your “hard evidence” is no such thing.
this isn't as good of an analogy as you think it is. Sure not *all* the Mets were cheating, but baseball has a huge steroid issue, and Robbie's bust is an indication that more probably are, especially if they are posting similar numbers to Robbie.
Shelby's positive test is hard evidence of Shelby cheating. Her coaches furiously defending her, continuing to train her, and her teammates supporting her IS evidence that something deeper might be going on. When Lance's competitors at the TdF started going down like flies, didn't that make you feel weird? Jan Ulrich, and so many others were cheats, but Lance, a winner, was...clean?
There are two American women who have run under 14:30. Two, in all of history. They ran it at the same race: a COVID time trial. Shelby got the record; she closed in a 60. Karissa 3 seconds back in 14:26. For years and years no one under 14:30. In fact up until that point only TWO WOMEN under 14:40 (Shelby and Shannon). And then magic! Two just sailed to sub 14:30.
Six months later, Shelby tested positive. Six months after that, she was banned.
It's really really hard for me to believe that the woman on her tail, the woman who is her training partner, the woman who has beaten her, the only other woman to run sub 14:30... is clean.
Karissa, who was with Shelby when she got the email with the test, since supported Shelby, qualified for the Olympic team but ran considerably slower. She wasn't a factor internationally.
She's turned into the type that "just loves running and racing!" Never mind recovery. She ran the 10, 5, 15 emulating Sifan, apparently. After tough rounds of the 15, she came to the five and took it at the mile LEADING a 4:25 before settling for second in the 5. Not nearly as "impressive" as Sifan of course, but Karissa lacks Sifan's natural talent.
How do you know that MLB has a huge steroid issue? Cano getting caught certainly isn’t hard evidence of that.
Lance’s last TDF win was almost 20 years ago. I assume they’ve cleaned up their act but even if they haven’t, what happened with Armstrong has nothing to do with American T&F. For the record, I’ve had little interest in the TDF since the time Landis got busted.
It hasn’t been scientifically proven that Schweizer is physically incapable of running 14:26 without doping. Can you define a minimum time for each distance that is concrete evidence of cheating? Is it 14:30 which means Monson is clean?
Of course you know that Hassan didn’t have a one month break after running the 10 and doesn’t everyone lack Hassan’s natural ability?
this isn't as good of an analogy as you think it is. Sure not *all* the Mets were cheating, but baseball has a huge steroid issue, and Robbie's bust is an indication that more probably are, especially if they are posting similar numbers to Robbie.
Shelby's positive test is hard evidence of Shelby cheating. Her coaches furiously defending her, continuing to train her, and her teammates supporting her IS evidence that something deeper might be going on. When Lance's competitors at the TdF started going down like flies, didn't that make you feel weird? Jan Ulrich, and so many others were cheats, but Lance, a winner, was...clean?
There are two American women who have run under 14:30. Two, in all of history. They ran it at the same race: a COVID time trial. Shelby got the record; she closed in a 60. Karissa 3 seconds back in 14:26. For years and years no one under 14:30. In fact up until that point only TWO WOMEN under 14:40 (Shelby and Shannon). And then magic! Two just sailed to sub 14:30.
Six months later, Shelby tested positive. Six months after that, she was banned.
It's really really hard for me to believe that the woman on her tail, the woman who is her training partner, the woman who has beaten her, the only other woman to run sub 14:30... is clean.
Karissa, who was with Shelby when she got the email with the test, since supported Shelby, qualified for the Olympic team but ran considerably slower. She wasn't a factor internationally.
She's turned into the type that "just loves running and racing!" Never mind recovery. She ran the 10, 5, 15 emulating Sifan, apparently. After tough rounds of the 15, she came to the five and took it at the mile LEADING a 4:25 before settling for second in the 5. Not nearly as "impressive" as Sifan of course, but Karissa lacks Sifan's natural talent.
How do you know that MLB has a huge steroid issue? Cano getting caught certainly isn’t hard evidence of that.
Lance’s last TDF win was almost 20 years ago. I assume they’ve cleaned up their act but even if they haven’t, what happened with Armstrong has nothing to do with American T&F. For the record, I’ve had little interest in the TDF since the time Landis got busted.
It hasn’t been scientifically proven that Schweizer is physically incapable of running 14:26 without doping. Can you define a minimum time for each distance that is concrete evidence of cheating? Is it 14:30 which means Monson is clean?
Of course you know that Hassan didn’t have a one month break after running the 10 and doesn’t everyone lack Hassan’s natural ability?
Uh, MLB absolutely has a huge steroid issue. They are not at all trying to catch it. They're just suspending the players who are dumb enough to get caught. They don't care.
How do you know that MLB has a huge steroid issue? Cano getting caught certainly isn’t hard evidence of that.
Lance’s last TDF win was almost 20 years ago. I assume they’ve cleaned up their act but even if they haven’t, what happened with Armstrong has nothing to do with American T&F. For the record, I’ve had little interest in the TDF since the time Landis got busted.
It hasn’t been scientifically proven that Schweizer is physically incapable of running 14:26 without doping. Can you define a minimum time for each distance that is concrete evidence of cheating? Is it 14:30 which means Monson is clean?
Of course you know that Hassan didn’t have a one month break after running the 10 and doesn’t everyone lack Hassan’s natural ability?
Uh, MLB absolutely has a huge steroid issue. They are not at all trying to catch it. They're just suspending the players who are dumb enough to get caught. They don't care.
this isn't as good of an analogy as you think it is. Sure not *all* the Mets were cheating, but baseball has a huge steroid issue, and Robbie's bust is an indication that more probably are, especially if they are posting similar numbers to Robbie.
Shelby's positive test is hard evidence of Shelby cheating. Her coaches furiously defending her, continuing to train her, and her teammates supporting her IS evidence that something deeper might be going on. When Lance's competitors at the TdF started going down like flies, didn't that make you feel weird? Jan Ulrich, and so many others were cheats, but Lance, a winner, was...clean?
There are two American women who have run under 14:30. Two, in all of history. They ran it at the same race: a COVID time trial. Shelby got the record; she closed in a 60. Karissa 3 seconds back in 14:26. For years and years no one under 14:30. In fact up until that point only TWO WOMEN under 14:40 (Shelby and Shannon). And then magic! Two just sailed to sub 14:30.
Six months later, Shelby tested positive. Six months after that, she was banned.
It's really really hard for me to believe that the woman on her tail, the woman who is her training partner, the woman who has beaten her, the only other woman to run sub 14:30... is clean.
Karissa, who was with Shelby when she got the email with the test, since supported Shelby, qualified for the Olympic team but ran considerably slower. She wasn't a factor internationally.
She's turned into the type that "just loves running and racing!" Never mind recovery. She ran the 10, 5, 15 emulating Sifan, apparently. After tough rounds of the 15, she came to the five and took it at the mile LEADING a 4:25 before settling for second in the 5. Not nearly as "impressive" as Sifan of course, but Karissa lacks Sifan's natural talent.
How do you know that MLB has a huge steroid issue? Cano getting caught certainly isn’t hard evidence of that.
Lance’s last TDF win was almost 20 years ago. I assume they’ve cleaned up their act but even if they haven’t, what happened with Armstrong has nothing to do with American T&F. For the record, I’ve had little interest in the TDF since the time Landis got busted.
It hasn’t been scientifically proven that Schweizer is physically incapable of running 14:26 without doping. Can you define a minimum time for each distance that is concrete evidence of cheating? Is it 14:30 which means Monson is clean?
Of course you know that Hassan didn’t have a one month break after running the 10 and doesn’t everyone lack Hassan’s natural ability?
Honestly, with 7 billion people on this earth and what we know about genetic variability there probably are true freaks of nature who can run <14:30 or <12:50 clean. It's probably a matter of luck whether they end up pursuing running at a high level. How we determine which of the athletes in those exclusive clubs are natty or frauds is probably largely a matter of emotion. Personally, I like Bekele and really want to believe that he was touched by God himself to dominate like that naturally. Thus I think he was/is clean. I do not like BTC and between the Fancy Bears leak and Shelby's test I will continue to believe they are doping, likely with exotic prohormones that Shelby was foolish enough to goof up and get caught with.
As for Monson, she is a good example of a "diamond in the rough" who certainly showed promise in HS but she also played basketball throughout. She improved in college and seems to have been able to stay healthy as a pro. That's pretty rare for women especially so given that plus talent I think she's the real deal. If I found out anyone on OAC was doping I would be very bummed and would probably turn in to astro and completely give up on the idea of clean pro runners.
If my coworker gets arrested for DUI, does that make me a drunk driver? Or how about my classmate gets popped for cheating on a test; am I a cheater, too?
How do you know that MLB has a huge steroid issue? Cano getting caught certainly isn’t hard evidence of that.
Lance’s last TDF win was almost 20 years ago. I assume they’ve cleaned up their act but even if they haven’t, what happened with Armstrong has nothing to do with American T&F. For the record, I’ve had little interest in the TDF since the time Landis got busted.
It hasn’t been scientifically proven that Schweizer is physically incapable of running 14:26 without doping. Can you define a minimum time for each distance that is concrete evidence of cheating? Is it 14:30 which means Monson is clean?
Of course you know that Hassan didn’t have a one month break after running the 10 and doesn’t everyone lack Hassan’s natural ability?
Honestly, with 7 billion people on this earth and what we know about genetic variability there probably are true freaks of nature who can run <14:30 or <12:50 clean. It's probably a matter of luck whether they end up pursuing running at a high level. How we determine which of the athletes in those exclusive clubs are natty or frauds is probably largely a matter of emotion. Personally, I like Bekele and really want to believe that he was touched by God himself to dominate like that naturally. Thus I think he was/is clean. I do not like BTC and between the Fancy Bears leak and Shelby's test I will continue to believe they are doping, likely with exotic prohormones that Shelby was foolish enough to goof up and get caught with.
As for Monson, she is a good example of a "diamond in the rough" who certainly showed promise in HS but she also played basketball throughout. She improved in college and seems to have been able to stay healthy as a pro. That's pretty rare for women especially so given that plus talent I think she's the real deal. If I found out anyone on OAC was doping I would be very bummed and would probably turn in to astro and completely give up on the idea of clean pro runners.
If you completely give on the idea of clean pro runners are you still going to follow the sport of distance running? I couldn’t. I prefer to trust the testing over analyzing each runner’s progression to judge who’s clean.
Everyone knows there's no hard evidence that BTC and other elite runners are doping. Not to speak for astro, but after reading his posts, I tend to feel the same way. Also, why does he have to reconcile anything? If someone contradicts themselves on the internet because they feel a bit about both topics, that doesn't invalidate their opinion.
Guys, a btc runner tested positive for a steroid. yes she’s claiming innocence. Anyone would. I’m going to say it again. A btc runner tested positive for a steroid.
What hard evidence do you need? An Oprah interview???
You don’t need to be a BTC runner to test positive. Many others not in BTC have tested positive in the past and will in the future