Why don't you admit you have no wish to debate the ethics of homosexuality?
BTW, I'm not 'homophobic' in any way. I do object to identity politics and I have the right to dispute the claim that LBGT people in the UK in 2022 are 'discriminated' against. I am also a secular rationalist, and am open-minded to the possibility that the fact that virtually every culture on Earth until the last 50 years in the West suppressed homosexuality, may indicate there were deep-rooted social reasons for doing so (and not just 'prejudice' or because 'a Sky God says it's wrong'.
Homosexuality was not 'accepted' in the Ancient World. You can't have your cake and eat it. Either pederasts (in modern parlance 'paedophiles') are homosexuals, or the Ancient Greeks and others were not accepting of homosexuals.
I'm surprised none of you have brought in the penguin argument yet.
I don’t need to debate the ethics of my existence with you. As I mentioned previously, you have shown yourself to be ignorant on this topic. You don’t know history, you don’t know the definition of lesbian, and you took the absurd position that there is no discrimination against gay people in the West and heterosexuals are stigmatized. Now you’re suggesting that there may be valid reasons for suppressing homosexuality. Why would I waste my time debating with such a person? It would be as useless as debating a white supremacist about their ideology. If you’re so interested in this topic, you can do the reading I’ve already recommended.
I do know history, and you made a factually incorrect statement about Ancient Greece. When your case is made of lies or factual errors, and then you call your opponent ignorant and refuse to discuss with him, maybe your position has nothing to do with being rational.
Why are people saying she could have lost her career in the army? Homosexuality may have been against the rules, but she is not a homosexual, she is a lesbian. Although I can't keep up with the ever expanding terminology, have to admit. What on Earth is the difference between 'gay' and 'queer', for example? And I don't even want to know what all the other new words mean.
Hi. In the British Army there was no distinction between gay men and gay women. It extended to gay men, lesbian women and bisexual men and women, when we are talking about sexuality. I don't like the whole 'queer' terminology (because of how the word was used in the past, I hate the word) but that's just me and if someone chooses to define like that fine.
I know a lot of people lost pensions etc over this. At the end of the day I hope we get to a point where coming out isn't necessary.
This is from a long serving army sergeant:
"The armed forces no longer cares what you do in your own private life, so long as you are a dedicated individual to your job," added Sgt Smith-Weston. This is how I think it should be. It also had quite far reaching consequences. For example this man had to declare a criminal record every time he applied for a job (because of being gay):
EXCLJSIVE: As recently as the 1990s British soldiers were jailed and court martialed and lost medals and pensions just for being gay and now campaigners say its time to pardon them and right a wrong
Some of the consequences in that article are quite shocking and it's not that long ago. I think a lot of this explains why older people have more reservations about being able to be open about being gay compared to younger people. At the end of the day people are serving their country and in a lot of cases putting their life on the line. Their personal life should not matter unless it harms someone else.
Why are people saying she could have lost her career in the army? Homosexuality may have been against the rules, but she is not a homosexual, she is a lesbian. Although I can't keep up with the ever expanding terminology, have to admit. What on Earth is the difference between 'gay' and 'queer', for example? And I don't even want to know what all the other new words mean.
Hi. In the British Army there was no distinction between gay men and gay women. It extended to gay men, lesbian women and bisexual men and women, when we are talking about sexuality. I don't like the whole 'queer' terminology (because of how the word was used in the past, I hate the word) but that's just me and if someone chooses to define like that fine.
I know a lot of people lost pensions etc over this. At the end of the day I hope we get to a point where coming out isn't necessary.
This is from a long serving army sergeant:
"The armed forces no longer cares what you do in your own private life, so long as you are a dedicated individual to your job," added Sgt Smith-Weston. This is how I think it should be. It also had quite far reaching consequences. For example this man had to declare a criminal record every time he applied for a job (because of being gay):
Some of the consequences in that article are quite shocking and it's not that long ago. I think a lot of this explains why older people have more reservations about being able to be open about being gay compared to younger people. At the end of the day people are serving their country and in a lot of cases putting their life on the line. Their personal life should not matter unless it harms someone else.
Why are we even pardoning people who broke the rules or laws of their time, even if we think those rules were unfair?
Only slightly off topic, but there seems to be a correlation between the introduction and prevalence of High Fructose Corn Syrup in the American diet and the rise of deviant moral and sexual behavior.
Hi. In the British Army there was no distinction between gay men and gay women. It extended to gay men, lesbian women and bisexual men and women, when we are talking about sexuality. I don't like the whole 'queer' terminology (because of how the word was used in the past, I hate the word) but that's just me and if someone chooses to define like that fine.
I know a lot of people lost pensions etc over this. At the end of the day I hope we get to a point where coming out isn't necessary.
This is from a long serving army sergeant:
"The armed forces no longer cares what you do in your own private life, so long as you are a dedicated individual to your job," added Sgt Smith-Weston. This is how I think it should be. It also had quite far reaching consequences. For example this man had to declare a criminal record every time he applied for a job (because of being gay):
Some of the consequences in that article are quite shocking and it's not that long ago. I think a lot of this explains why older people have more reservations about being able to be open about being gay compared to younger people. At the end of the day people are serving their country and in a lot of cases putting their life on the line. Their personal life should not matter unless it harms someone else.
Why are we even pardoning people who broke the rules or laws of their time, even if we think those rules were unfair?
Why do you claim not to be homophobic as you push homophobic ideas and try to argue that that being gay is unethical?
Why do you claim not to be homophobic as you push homophobic ideas and try to argue that that being gay is unethical?
No, I'm putting forward rational ideas, and it's you and the rest who respond with lies, errors and childish insults. Perhaps you are alithiaphobic? I have no 'irrational' prejudice against homosexuals. I'm pointing out that the Ancient Greeks were not homosexuals. I'm pointing out that if every society in history surpressed homosexuality, there may have been some rational social reason for doing so (not necessarily true in a modern society). I'm pointing out that it's a slippery slope to pardon people for past crimes, as it allows anybody to believe that it's ok to break the law if they personally feel it's unjust and will be seen to be at a future point. I'm pointing out that many of those pardoned for the 'crime of being gay' were soliciting 16 year old boys in public restrooms and the like. Alan Turin was in his mid 40's when he seduced a 20 year old lad (a minor in the UK at the time). He was pretty much a Kevin Spacey of the 1950's. Yet we have him on our banknotes and he's a symbol of 'homophobia'.
Another point about homosexuality being illegal in the army was that such was the taboo back then, it left military personnel open to black mail. In the article posted by trackchick, a fomer gay soldier kicked out of the army for 'being gay' boasted of guarding Rudolf Hess in Berlin.
I'm pointing out that many of those pardoned for the 'crime of being gay' were soliciting 16 year old boys in public restrooms and the like. Alan Turin was in his mid 40's when he seduced a 20 year old lad (a minor in the UK at the time). He was pretty much a Kevin Spacey of the 1950's. Yet we have him on our banknotes and he's a symbol of 'homophobia'.
Age of consent was 16 for girls and 21 for boys. Alan Turing had a relationship with a 20 year old man and was put in jail, but he could have been with a 16-year-old girl completely legally.
The rules weren't "unfair", they were downright ludicrous.
Another point about homosexuality being illegal in the army was that such was the taboo back then, it left military personnel open to black mail. In the article posted by trackchick, a fomer gay soldier kicked out of the army for 'being gay' boasted of guarding Rudolf Hess in Berlin.
Are you aware that any viewpoint on oppression, discrimination, or violence can be made to seem “rational,” as Hitler did with the Holocaust, as slave owners and traders did with Africans, and as men did when they denied women the right to vote? Why do you try to find “rational” reasons for justifying discrimination against gay people, rather than come up with “rational” reasons for acceptance and equality?
A recent study from 2004 showed that more than 50% of soldiers didn't approve of open gays in the military....Call it whatever you want, but most straight men don't want to shower or expose themselves to Men who are sexually attracted to them, it makes them uncomfortable, which is a normal reaction. Would we let hetro Men shower with hetro Women?
Ah, as expected, one only has to read the comments on this thread to understand what a bunch of thick, ignorant twats the majority of posters are on this forum.
A recent study from 2004 showed that more than 50% of soldiers didn't approve of open gays in the military....Call it whatever you want, but most straight men don't want to shower or expose themselves to Men who are sexually attracted to them, it makes them uncomfortable, which is a normal reaction. Would we let hetro Men shower with hetro Women?
Are you aware that most White people didn’t approve of letting Black people go to the same school as them when segregation was ruled to be unconstitutional?
I think, when talking about this, you have to realise it's of the time and the context in which she grew up and the world she moved in. She could've been jailed - realistically - if it had been discovered that she was gay back then. These articles talk about it in a bit more detail -
So yeah it was a big deal to her, as she could've lost her career (she had wanted to go into the army since she was 14 or so) and lost her freedom and basically been completely disgraced. Being surrounded by that kind of pressure to hide who you are for that length of time isn't something trivial. It's sad she had to go through it especially when serving her country and I'm glad that times have changed.
Why are people saying she could have lost her career in the army? Homosexuality may have been against the rules, but she is not a homosexual, she is a lesbian.
Being a lesbian falls within the ban that existed on homosexuality in the army. You are incapable of refraining from lying.
Just like Jesus I love my neighbor, but not their sin.
John : 8:11 - (After the woman was accused of adultery) “No one, sir,” she said. “Then neither do I condemn you,"Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”
A recent study from 2004 showed that more than 50% of soldiers didn't approve of open gays in the military....Call it whatever you want, but most straight men don't want to shower or expose themselves to Men who are sexually attracted to them, it makes them uncomfortable, which is a normal reaction. Would we let hetro Men shower with hetro Women?
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