Ms. 14:26, can close in close to 60 not even in the international game at the Olympics.
The thing about Bowerman is that so MANY of their athletes found rarified air. Shelby. Karissa. Elise. Shalane. Courtney. Even Colleen was one of the best when she was there. All came out of college with decent potential to do well on the pro circuit, and none but Shalane were super dominant. But then they get to Bowerman and it's like--boom, explosion. It's happened too many times for that to be a coincidence.
Jerry isn't doing anything secretive with regard to his training. His oodles of miles won't make a runner who can withstand it superhuman. Also there's the question of why some runners can stand all those miles in the first place when others can't.........
Jerry doesn’t make it easy for himself as he declines all interviews and avoids even having his picture taken. He’s arguably the most successful US pro coach right now and he avoids any interaction with the running media. This isn’t good for the sport. Let us know how your athletes are doing, where they are racing and so forth. At least someone like Salazar spoke to the media and accepted interview requests. I can go on Flotrack/Runnerspace/youtube right now and find dozens of videos of Salazar talking shop about racing and training. Hell, he allowed folks to film Rupp and Goucher workouts. Jerry would order the police on someone at Nike campus if they did that.
Probably explains why Salazar was so much more valuable to Nike. He was a company man, tried to raise the profile of his group, the brand, and the sport. He also trained global champions which Schumacher hasn't yet, so he would have been more in demand from mainstream media. Of course, Schumacher doesn't have a doping bust on his own record (just on one of his athlete's)
The question is whether they are contracted to run for BTC or just Nike. Plenty of Nike athletes have their own situation, like Rupp, Mantz, and Grace. The question is whether the BTC athletes could find another coach that suits them and isn't contractually tied to another company. Ritz could easily take on the whole Bowerman group but that obviously isn't an option. It's a moot point anyway, the men in particular don't seem to have any concerns at all about training with Houlihan
I imagine they're contracted to run for Nike since several of the women who have left went to other Nike groups, or figured out their own training situation. I figure they probably sign with Nike, then decide whether they want to train with a group or figure out their own thing, and go and meet the group/coaches if they choose that route to decide who they click most with. I wish some of the guys like Ahmed, Fisher, Jager, etc could go train with Ritz/On. It's a group with a ton of visibility with the Coffee Club Podcast, Morgan's YT channel, the group's SM, various members doing interviews, and getting some workouts filmed.
I can understand the guys not wanting to talk about the Houlihan situation much. It's pretty much a lose-lose any way they handle it. Either they catch a ton of flak from the team for mentioning any details or their opinions, or they say they support Shelby and catch a bunch of flak from fans. It's in their best interest to speak as little as possible about it, especially since there's not really any other training group they can go to, and Nike seems to be supporting Houlihan. Don't bite the hand that feeds you. It's easy for all the people on here to bash BTC athletes for supporting Shelby (implicitly or explicitly), but none of us have any clue what's going on behind the scenes. We should pressure Nike/Jerry/Shalane to give us answers since they're the leaders of the group, not just people on the team.
Probably explains why Salazar was so much more valuable to Nike. He was a company man, tried to raise the profile of his group, the brand, and the sport. He also trained global champions which Schumacher hasn't yet, so he would have been more in demand from mainstream media. Of course, Schumacher doesn't have a doping bust on his own record (just on one of his athlete's)
As much as people bashed AlSal for being secretive and using the gray area a lot, he really had nothing on Jerry. When Rupp was going for the 10k AR in 2010, Nike publicized it a ton and said ahead of time that Rupp would be doing interviews the next day at a new Nike store. The whole point of the NOP was to bring attention to the sport and to get Americans on the podium at championships again, and he, more than anyone, was successful at it. He let people film workouts, did interviews outside of immediately postrace interviews, always had his athletes running world indoors, publicized whenever they were going after records, did DL races, etc. I just wish BTC would do some of the same stuff, because as much as I want to believe Shelby was just a one-off case, it certainly gets harder to believe as time goes on and more stuff comes out.
Maybe the creepiest thing about this website (which is saying something) is how people refer to male athletes by their last names, but female athletes by their first names - Elise, Vanessa, Shalane. They are not your friends. You have no chance. Clean it up dudes.
Odd take. I think it actually entirely depends on the athlete - their name, personality, how well known they are etc...
Eg, earlier this thread I called Konstanze Klosterhalfen "Koko" but I called Mary Cain "Cain". I think most people are the same with some unknown internal subjective criteria, and it applies to men and women.
Also, I thought it was meant to be almost be a thing of respect once you get to a level that you're known by first name only. Eg, "Serena" is known all around the world.
For what it's worth, here are the 5 Bowerman Babes remaining:
1. Courtney Frerichs: Staunchly defended Shelby, has an Olympic medal, had a suspicious improvement and significant physical change. Likely doping.
2. Karissa Schweizer: No suspicious improvement or body change, but 14:26 in and of itself is suspicious, and there are rumors she still trains with Shelby sometimes. Maybe doping.
3. Elise Cranny: Staunchly defended Shelby, had a suspicious improvement and significant physical change, and comes from a college program with a very poor reputation for doping control. Likely doping.
4. Vanessa Fraser: No real quality times to note, but did have a significant physical change, and comes from a college program with a very poor reputation for doping control. Maybe doping.
5. Andrea Seccafien: Only joined the group last year as part of the Canadian contingent and was likely lied to. Watch for her to be the next to leave the group.
You have no idea whether these people are doping and it shows what a loser you are to post accusations.
Must suck to wake up and look in the mirror every day and see your face
2. Karissa Schweizer: No suspicious improvement or body change, but 14:26 in and of itself is suspicious, and there are rumors she still trains with Shelby sometimes. Maybe doping.
Yes. People tend to underestimate 14:26 because of all the fast Ethiopians (incl. Hassan) and Kenyans.
Top 5 all time non-Africans:
1) 14:23.75 Shobukhova 2008, pre ABP, banned drug cheat 2) 14:23.92 Houlihan 2020, banned drug cheat 3) 14:26.34 Schweizer 2020, banned drug cheat’s teammate and supporter 4) 14:26.76 Klosterhalfen 2019, under banned drug cheat coach 5) 14:28.09 Bo 1997, EPO era, Ma’s army
Top 5 all time Americans:
1) 14:23.92 Houlihan 2020, banned drug cheat 2) 14:26.34 Schweizer 2020, banned drug cheat’s teammate and supporter 3) 14:38.92 Rowberry 2016, under banned drug cheat coach 4) 14:42.64 Huddle 2014 5) 14:44.80 Flanagan 2007, coach of banned drug cheat
Also note that drug cheat Jacobs isn't even in the top 5 anymore, and how much Houlihan and Schweizer are ahead of the next best Americans.
2. Karissa Schweizer: No suspicious improvement or body change, but 14:26 in and of itself is suspicious, and there are rumors she still trains with Shelby sometimes. Maybe doping.
Yes. People tend to underestimate 14:26 because of all the fast Ethiopians (incl. Hassan) and Kenyans.
Top 5 all time non-Africans:
1) 14:23.75 Shobukhova 2008, pre ABP, banned drug cheat 2) 14:23.92 Houlihan 2020, banned drug cheat 3) 14:26.34 Schweizer 2020, banned drug cheat’s teammate and supporter 4) 14:26.76 Klosterhalfen 2019, under banned drug cheat coach 5) 14:28.09 Bo 1997, EPO era, Ma’s army
Top 5 all time Americans:
1) 14:23.92 Houlihan 2020, banned drug cheat 2) 14:26.34 Schweizer 2020, banned drug cheat’s teammate and supporter 3) 14:38.92 Rowberry 2016, under banned drug cheat coach 4) 14:42.64 Huddle 2014 5) 14:44.80 Flanagan 2007, coach of banned drug cheat
Also note that drug cheat Jacobs isn't even in the top 5 anymore, and how much Houlihan and Schweizer are ahead of the next best Americans.
Klosterhalfen has always been under Pete Julian. Yes, I know, he's very closely associated with AlSal, but it's factually incorrect to say "under banned drug cheat coach". NOP, AlSal, UAC and Pete Julian have never had an athlete serve any kind of doping suspension.
And of course Salazar is a banned drug cheat coach. Obviously banned, and he coached (testo) drug cheat Decker, and he himself was a (testo) drug cheat as athlete.
I highly doubt any of the BTC runners was/is clean. The analogy would be Floyd Landis.
But also I doubt BTC thinks she cheated bc I think they view doping as a necessity. Like it or not this is a doping sport like sprinting, cycling or cross-country skiing, and to be competitive at the highest reaches of the sport requires chemistry. They probably see SH as the victim of selective enforcement.
Really unsure why this is such an unpopular opinion.
You do realize she was injured and had surgery, correct? And in her first race back totally dismantled Infeld? the Shelby angle isn’t the only explanation.
Because people do not want to acknowledge reality. The problem with doping in this sport as with all sports is you do not know what's real. And you have to suspect anything that seems odd or off kilter. That charming story of the career journeyman who suddenly becomes a champion, that off told tale of the late blooming distance runner who suddenly runs record times after never previously displaying that type of talent. It all starts to stink. I think every top pro runner has to dope to be competitive, so I'm not going to crucify them. It is what it is. But we suspected Houlihan based on her progression and the times she ran. Yet the same people that condemn her will not bat an eyebrow about much more suspect performances. The women's 5000m WR is 14:06. People have to be on drugs themselves to think that was clean.
Because people do not want to acknowledge reality. The problem with doping in this sport as with all sports is you do not know what's real. And you have to suspect anything that seems odd or off kilter. That charming story of the career journeyman who suddenly becomes a champion, that off told tale of the late blooming distance runner who suddenly runs record times after never previously displaying that type of talent. It all starts to stink. I think every top pro runner has to dope to be competitive, so I'm not going to crucify them. It is what it is. But we suspected Houlihan based on her progression and the times she ran. Yet the same people that condemn her will not bat an eyebrow about much more suspect performances. The women's 5000m WR is 14:06. People have to be on drugs themselves to think that was clean.
This ^ I think the only time to crucify someone is when they deny doping allegations yet reek to the high heavens of it. Keira D'amato is an amazing story, great for all distance running, not just American women. But really? C'mon. she shattered a fantastic record out of the blue. I won't ever crucify her for it, but I will have to force myself to suspend rational belief in order to enjoy it.
To follow this sport (or really any endurance sport) you have to suspend belief that any of it is done clean.
Because people do not want to acknowledge reality. The problem with doping in this sport as with all sports is you do not know what's real. And you have to suspect anything that seems odd or off kilter. That charming story of the career journeyman who suddenly becomes a champion, that off told tale of the late blooming distance runner who suddenly runs record times after never previously displaying that type of talent. It all starts to stink. I think every top pro runner has to dope to be competitive, so I'm not going to crucify them. It is what it is. But we suspected Houlihan based on her progression and the times she ran. Yet the same people that condemn her will not bat an eyebrow about much more suspect performances. The women's 5000m WR is 14:06. People have to be on drugs themselves to think that was clean.
This ^ I think the only time to crucify someone is when they deny doping allegations yet reek to the high heavens of it. Keira D'amato is an amazing story, great for all distance running, not just American women. But really? C'mon. she shattered a fantastic record out of the blue. I won't ever crucify her for it, but I will have to force myself to suspend rational belief in order to enjoy it.
To follow this sport (or really any endurance sport) you have to suspend belief that any of it is done clean.
Another alternative is to consider records as the less important competitive outcome. Winning, and doing so at the highest level against the best competition, should be the most esteemed outcome. Winning at lower levels should also be important. Setting records? Nice, but not that great if not accompanied by winning when it counts the most. For the given example of D'Amato, cool that she got the record but the lack of any big wins relegates her to lesser light status at this point. Not unlike Sara Hall, who significantly lacks major podiums in her long and illustrious career. Did Shorter set ARs? Sure but most fans would have to look them up to be certain, whereas all are certain that he won medals.
Why do you say that? If she doped, and it certainly seems like she did, then I wouldn't expect her to try to compete clean in the future. She would know better than anyone that she can't compete as her old self. She would also know exactly what she did differently before testing positive -- compared to what she did before dozens of negative test results before that.
Worst case scenario she ends her career with another ban. But at least she would have a fighting chance.
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