Dude, you are SOOOO in the tank for Shelby, the whole Q and A (okay, 90%, not all 100%), is you asking over and over again, Lloyd Christmas style, "so there's a chance she's innocent".
You are a disgrace.
+1
Plus, all the deletions to favor BTC/Houlihan here in this thread and elsewhere speak volumes.
And after all this, rojo still pretends it's an open question "whether she did it or not" - as he wrote today!
I think many of us are looking for two things from you.
1) Consistency in who and how you jump at as seeming suspicious. I've been on these boards since I was 13 back in the early 2000s. You have been inconsistent in your suspicions. If you were so suspicious about Regina, why aren't you suspicious about Keira D'Amato?
2) An explanation to why you are still seemingly siding with BTC/Jerry. You've admitted that Jerry is handling this poorly from a PR standpoint. Make a statement that says he should not be coaching Shelby alongside the BTC athletes. If not, explain why, please.
1) I can't speak for Rojo but the consistency is Rojo is expressing how he feels. He looks at each case and gives his thoughts on it. Not each drug case is the same. You should look at the evidence and try and form an opinion.
2) If Jerry thinks Shelby didn't intentionally dope and wants to keep coaching her, apparently that is not an anti-doping violation so then it just becomes a matter of public relations right? The easier course for him would be to cast her aside but that isn't what he believes.
And your brother always sides with white people, and against black people. Interesting how that works out huh?
LetsRun commissioned and printed an article from a respected sports scientist that confirms Shelby doped with as close to 100% certainty as is possible in any doping case.
LetsRun commissioned and printed an article from a respected sports scientist that confirms Shelby doped with as close to 100% certainty as is possible in any doping case.
I think many of us are looking for two things from you.
1) Consistency in who and how you jump at as seeming suspicious. I've been on these boards since I was 13 back in the early 2000s. You have been inconsistent in your suspicions. If you were so suspicious about Regina, why aren't you suspicious about Keira D'Amato?
2) An explanation to why you are still seemingly siding with BTC/Jerry. You've admitted that Jerry is handling this poorly from a PR standpoint. Make a statement that says he should not be coaching Shelby alongside the BTC athletes. If not, explain why, please.
Inconsistent? How so? Please tell me an example.
I mean there are plenty of athletes I think could be dirty but I don't talk about it. Why not? I have no desire to to get sued. Every time a Moroccan or Russian did well, did you want me to just say without any evidence I thought it they were dirty?
Plus there is a huge difference between then and now. Namely, I feel like they are actively trying to catch people now and the media isn't afraid to ask tough questions. Back then, I didn't think they were trying to pop people - plus there were whole classes of drugs that were undetectable - and the media was playing the role of hero worshiping whether it was with McGuire/Bonds in baseball or Lance in cycling.. Now it's the opposite, they are doing lots of out of competition testing, there is target testing, there is an ABP, etc. and Lance is no longer a God, he is a fallen hero.
Now your specific questions.
1) Why aren't I suspicious of D'Amato? We flat out asked her about drugs when we had her on the podcast. So we did exactly the same thing I to her that I did to Regina. The only difference is, it wasn't newsworthy as we've been intellectually consistent from day 1. We asked Regina about drugs, we asked Gatlin, D'Amato and Grant Fisher (who emailed Jonathan after the pod was over to have him thank me for bringing it up as he wanted to address it).
And I said on the podcast, D'Amato's success at least doubles the odds that Alan Webb was on drugs in HS for me.
2) I'm not siding with anyone. I made a shirt so those who think they excuse is BS can mock it. I'm also sending whatever proceeds that come from it to them. I'm trying to play it down the middle.
Why do I defend BTC in general? Because if they are dirty, there is no point in being a track fan. I might as well get another job. I've had a few conversations in my life with Jerry and it's like talking to myself or Weldon about drugs. He's not interested in it, knows nothing about it, etc.
If someone had asked me before this , "What is nandrolone?" I'd say, "I don't really know. Some sort of steroid." That's basically what he said and no one believes he could be that uninformed. Why do you need to know about drugs if you aren't using them and when their is google?
As for him not coaching her, I've never been for optics. I don't care if Athing Mu DNFs Millrose and I don't really care about this if it's legal. I totally get why a banned coach can't coach but don't get why a banned athlete can't train. If they want to train their asses off while being out of the sport, go right ahead. I know I"d be allowed to coach her so why do I care if he does it. If they have been told it's technically ok, then he can do it.
Is it dumb for PR reasons? Yes. He should coach her remotely. But I respect Jerry a great deal for not abandoning Shelby. People don't seem to understand this. He - perhaps incorrectly - believes Shelby is clean. If you have someone close to you in life, and they are at their lowest of lows, I sure as hell hope you are there for them. He's not going to abandon her in her time of need.
What has bothered me about this? The whole press PR campaign. It has been done poorly which isn't a surprsie as Jerry doesn't know PR - he's never cared for it.
1) Hiding the positive test for months. The moment it came out, in hindsight, it should have been announced. Now I totally get why they tried to keep it under wraps and I think virtually everyone in the world would have done what they did (we certainly didn't hear of Ajee Wilson's test until it was resolved either) as it would have been distracting to the rest of the team, it tarnishes her reputation (as they thought she'd be cleared). But to me, transparency is key.
2) The press conference. This is the biggie. I did not like it at all how they made it look she ordered pig offal at the food truck. I think they should have been more honest about it. But put yourself in there shoes. An athlete you think is clean tests positive. You are told, "You need to make a food log. By the way, the one thing m ost likely to explain this would be pig ofal." You find out she ate a burrito truck that has pig offal on the menu. I mean seriously. What are the odds of that? I don't think I'vec ever eaten at a place in my life that serves pig offal. You obviously are going to think that's your explanation.
If it was me. I would have said, "I believe in my hearts she's clean. We don't know how it got in her system but think it must have been from the meal she ate the night before the test. She ordered chicken but we are assuming there was cross contamination or they got the order wrong. Regardless, the system is broken. Shelby is the third US Olympian in the last 3 years to test positive. There is a problem with the US food supply. The head of US Anti doping - Travis Tygart - has said this for year. We need to look into it and make sure the system isn't incorrectly catching innocent athletes. Phil Knight has pledged $1 milllion to look into this and I'm adding in $50,000 of my own."
3) I think he should announce she's still training with him in a private capacity. I imagine there is some legal reason why he's not doing it. It may be a violation of his Nike contract or he doesn't want to piss the AIU by looking into it but again the optics piss off the diehards.
I really only had a problem with #2. But I get how people see that and think they are being misled.
But please tell me how I'm inconsistent and then please put yourself in Jerry's shoes. Assume you are not a doping coach, what would you do?
From the hardest workouts they've ever run to Kastor being at peace with losing the record to D'Amato's response to those who would question her improvement, the two marathon stars covered it all.
If you read between the lines, it’s clear Tucker thinks she is guilty. As he says, the only real possible defence is she took a supplement which turned out to be tainted.
What I don’t get is why she didn’t just admit this in the first place. Even she couldn’t actually prove this, she’d get a lot of credit in the public domain for just saying “this is what I took, I think it must have had oral precursors in it, I can’t prove it. I wasn’t knowingly injecting banned drugs to get an advantage, but rather using every (what I believed to be) legal aid to compete at the super elite level in this brutal sport where I am certain others are doing a lot more.”
She’d have my support if she did this. Instead, her whole behaviour just feels wrong. It doesn’t pass the anecdotal evidence sniff test and she doesn’t get a pass from most fans because of this. It just feels shady, even if it actually isn’t.
It kinda reminds me of the Tyler Hamilton case. Ironically, once Tyler told the whole truth he elicited the support of a lot of fans and, most importantly, appears to now be at ease with his truth and consequently his life.
If Evan Jager at 32 starts running 15 seconds faster than ever before, I'm going to be suspicious as hell.
Except her improvement was over 40 seconds, in an event she was familiar with. Not like SH started doing the 5000 in 2019.
Progression from 2016-2020 of 1506,1500,14:34,15:XX,14:23 is a little eyebrow raising.
And yeah, never being in the conversation to all the sudden being a world beater and running practice runs under 14:30 is going to garner some suspicion, and rightly so.
There's always a 'test' created here that Shelby can 'pass' seemingly and that's what people are getting a little annoyed by at this point
Shelby was an 800 runner for half her college career. I asked her college coach Louis Quintana at NCAAs about her and he said something along the lines of he very much undertrained her.
Yes her improvement is massive. So what. So was her talent. Please name another 2:01 800 runner who was top 10 at NCAA xc. Seriously, has there ever been anyone else like that?
And gain, if that's all we're going on, then we need to stop being fans as then I can't believe in Fisher, Kincaid, etc.
You say that going from 15:06 to 14:23 is eyebrow raising from 2016 to 2020? So that's 43 seconds over 4 years.
So by that logic, i assume you think Molly Huddle is also dirty?Y Ten years before Shelby, she went from 15:32 to 14:42 from 2006 to 2010. That's 50 seconds in 4 years - more than Shelby and she was a 5000 runner in college.
And Des Linden. She went from 16:02 in 2009 to 15:08 in 2011 That's 63 seconds in 2 years.
I could go on and on. There are a ton of US collegiate women who aren't training at a super high level but when they go pro they massively improve. It's basically what happened to Grant Fisher as well.
Look. I don't know who is or isn't dirty. She very well could have been a rogue doper. I had guys on the Cornell team ask me if Morgan Uceny was a doper and David Epstein told me the thing he learned from his reporting on Lance is people can look you in the eye and lie convincingly, but I am not thinking "Oh she's a doper based on her 5000 improvement."
Plenty of other US women have improved similarly and I doubt many of them were as undertrained or as talented as her in college.
I could go on and on. There are a ton of US collegiate women who aren't training at a super high level but when they go pro they massively improve. It's basically what happened to Grant Fisher as well.
Look. I don't know who is or isn't dirty. She very well could have been a rogue doper. I had guys on the Cornell team ask me if Morgan Uceny was a doper and David Epstein told me the thing he learned from his reporting on Lance is people can look you in the eye and lie convincingly, but I am not thinking "Oh she's a doper based on her 5000 improvement."
Plenty of other US women have improved similarly and I doubt many of them were as undertrained or as talented as her in college.
Jesus Christ please don’t go on. AND ON AND ON AND ON. Without actually saying anything! And trying to gaslight us!
Facts:
(1) Shelby was found guilty, not Molly Huddle or whoever else
(2) You defended Shelby after she was found guilty
(3) You need to take your Ritalin and Zoloft before you post
I could go on and on. There are a ton of US collegiate women who aren't training at a super high level but when they go pro they massively improve. It's basically what happened to Grant Fisher as well.
Look. I don't know who is or isn't dirty. She very well could have been a rogue doper. I had guys on the Cornell team ask me if Morgan Uceny was a doper and David Epstein told me the thing he learned from his reporting on Lance is people can look you in the eye and lie convincingly, but I am not thinking "Oh she's a doper based on her 5000 improvement."
Plenty of other US women have improved similarly and I doubt many of them were as undertrained or as talented as her in college.
Jesus Christ please don’t go on. AND ON AND ON AND ON. Without actually saying anything! And trying to gaslight us!
Facts:
(1) Shelby was found guilty, not Molly Huddle or whoever else
(2) You defended Shelby after she was found guilty
(3) You need to take your Ritalin and Zoloft before you post
(4) No one here likes you (sorry brother, just telling it like it is)
One last thing about Shelby. Her mother was a professional marathoner. So her moving up and having success is far from a shock. But she was a bit like Ryan hall . She was so fast and pretty darn good at the short stuff, she didn't want to move up.
And this will come across as people saying, "Shes innocent." I'm not saying that. I'm just saying unless you are a scientist, there is no reason why you should have thought she was dirty based on her improvement.
One last thing about Shelby. Her mother was a professional marathoner. So her moving up and having success is far from a shock. But she was a bit like Ryan hall . She was so fast and pretty darn good at the short stuff, she didn't want to move up.
And this will come across as people saying, "Shes innocent." I'm not saying that. I'm just saying unless you are a scientist, there is no reason why you should have thought she was dirty based on her improvement.
Jesus CHRIST stop talking.
what does her mother being a marathoner have to do with ANYTHING.
OMG, the comparison of Shelby to Huddle. You of all people should know you can't make linear comparisons like that. Every second of improvement at that level is exponentially harder. Also, Huddle ran 14:44 , not 14:42.
Keep digging, pal. Funny how you were champing at the bit to condemn Regina Jacobs back in the day and how you are madly grasping at straws for Shelby. Deleting posts here and fundraising for her defense are unforced errors that further poison your brand.
What are you talking about? I've always said , "In a lot of drug cases, I can tell you who is dirty as their times / actions don't make any sense.
With Regina Jacobs, the woman was a so-so runner in college who was suddenly breaking records in her mid to late 30s. Then the EPO test was announced and she promptly announced she was turning down her Olympic spot. Does that not scream, "I'm on drugs?"
Then no one in the sports media would even ask her about her pull out.
I did.
(Instead, they wanted to ask an American who set the world indoor 5000 record at 38 about how she trained with her poodle).
I never said she was on drugs. I just said I found her actions and improvement to be suspicious as hell. My hunch was subsequently confirmed by a drug bust.
With the BTC it's the opposite. They once were part of the NOP. Jerry S found the whole thing and Dr. Brown to be shady as hell so they split apart. I used to be at USA meets and the BTC guys would come up to me and say, "Hey have you heard anything about Alberto?I would reply, "You guys workout 10 feet from them, I want to ask you if you've heard anything."
Unlike Regina, there is a rationale way to explain the improvements. You take some of the nation's most talented runners, have them go 100% all in in on running as well as altitude training and see what happens. My genetic equal improved a ton post college when he did that and many of the BTC runners do the same.
If Evan Jager at 32 starts running 15 seconds faster than ever before, I'm going to be suspicious as hell.
I'm not fundraising for her defense. I made a shirt mocking her excuse and felt bad about profiting about her personal downfall so decided no one should be upset if she gets a $1000 for her defense.
Your Jerry defense is maybe the most pathetic aspect of your BTC water carrying.
Jerry sent his athletes to Brown. This is undisputed amongst those remotely in the know. If the owners of Letsrun are not in that group, perhaps there’s a bigger problem here.
He stopped sending athletes to Brown when sh*t hit the fan with NOP. Not because “it didn’t seem right” or whatever brown-nosing excuse you guys have come up with.
This thread is spectacular. Brojos post their nonsense and it gets downvoted to hell. Keep it up LR.
Except her improvement was over 40 seconds, in an event she was familiar with. Not like SH started doing the 5000 in 2019.
Progression from 2016-2020 of 1506,1500,14:34,15:XX,14:23 is a little eyebrow raising.
And yeah, never being in the conversation to all the sudden being a world beater and running practice runs under 14:30 is going to garner some suspicion, and rightly so.
There's always a 'test' created here that Shelby can 'pass' seemingly and that's what people are getting a little annoyed by at this point
Shelby was an 800 runner for half her college career. I asked her college coach Louis Quintana at NCAAs about her and he said something along the lines of he very much undertrained her.
Yes her improvement is massive. So what. So was her talent. Please name another 2:01 800 runner who was top 10 at NCAA xc. Seriously, has there ever been anyone else like that?
And gain, if that's all we're going on, then we need to stop being fans as then I can't believe in Fisher, Kincaid, etc.
You say that going from 15:06 to 14:23 is eyebrow raising from 2016 to 2020? So that's 43 seconds over 4 years.
So by that logic, i assume you think Molly Huddle is also dirty?Y Ten years before Shelby, she went from 15:32 to 14:42 from 2006 to 2010. That's 50 seconds in 4 years - more than Shelby and she was a 5000 runner in college.
And Des Linden. She went from 16:02 in 2009 to 15:08 in 2011 That's 63 seconds in 2 years.
I could go on and on. There are a ton of US collegiate women who aren't training at a super high level but when they go pro they massively improve. It's basically what happened to Grant Fisher as well.
Look. I don't know who is or isn't dirty. She very well could have been a rogue doper. I had guys on the Cornell team ask me if Morgan Uceny was a doper and David Epstein told me the thing he learned from his reporting on Lance is people can look you in the eye and lie convincingly, but I am not thinking "Oh she's a doper based on her 5000 improvement."
Plenty of other US women have improved similarly and I doubt many of them were as undertrained or as talented as her in college.
We are seriously comparing 15:08 and 14:42 to a 14:23 run in practice???
Rojo, please publish Ross Tucker’s original report. It may be too technical for you, but not for many of us. I for one would prefer to read through the technical details as is, unabridged.
The first piece was so long originally. You'd be like 6 pages in and Ross had pointed out how the arbitrators had confused some terms in their ruling but there was still a lot to analyze as he was going point by point through the ruling. We then shortened it and focused it more on the, but then we still had none of what Ross really thought on the case and his opinions.
Then we created the Q&A piece. Really pleased with that one, but I did have this thought, maybe we should have kept the length of the other one.
We did do it as a google doc so it might be possible to publish it if Ross agrees to it.
Please publish as a downloadable doc, if you prefer to do so. Thanks.
Quiet often, the technical details are what matter.
There is always some excuse for a suspicious progression. Houlihan ran plenty of distance races in college. "But her coach said she was undertrained." Sure. And she got popped due to freak accident. Sheer credulity. I said flat out when she set the AR she was doping. Not hard to spot. I am very comfortable with that assessment.
Help us build the best running shoe review site for a chance to win a LetsRun t-shirt.Help us build the best running shoe review site for a chance to win one of 10 LetsRun t-shirts.
