Girls 800 National High School Champ Speaks Out About Transgenders in Sports

Wise Old Man wrote:

I’m specifically talking about T&F, but the getting cut from the team aspect, honestly just add another player. Your worried in your HS that 5 trans women are going to go out for the basketball team? Again, nobody is trans to game the system or win medals, and overwhelmingly they are a vulnerable population of people who often suffer abuse and scorn. At the level of HS sports and below I strongly believe the overall good out weighs the bad by simply letting them compete as they feel comfortable. I fully acknowledge there are biological differences that cannot be erased regardless of hormones, and as we move into competition levels tied to material gains, the biological fairness imperative becomes paramount. Our theoretical trans 800m runner would not be allowed to compete in D1 female sports. Yes, this will cause this person some injury, but I think the tables have turned and the greater good is served. Not everybody can have everything. The exact point to draw the line could be argued and might differ sport to sport.

As for you become furious about being beaten in your hobby jogger race. Seriously? You need to get some perspective. This level of meaningless recreational activity should be open to all. You can still pr right? I’m sorry but in this case your pleasure in bringing home the gold is easily outweighed by being inclusive and welcoming to your trans community member.

CooperBridge wrote:

You state your daughters are on a college team. Your daughters are not competitive runners who have won significant titles, been regarded as top athletes in the state or nation, or have truly committed to becoming an elite runner. If they were, they would not be worried about the inclusion of a biological male in the girls' race over them being able to compete in a fair race.

I also work with youth as a teacher and coach. Do you question why in the last 10 years the number of youth with "gender dysphoria" has increased by 1000%? You are using the usual talking points of how we are contributing to the young person's mental health issues by not playing along with someone who is not even allowed to decide if they can pierce their ears. As we are guilted into accepting a teenager's affirmation they were born in the wrong body because of something they saw on Tik-Tok, and force our daughters to compete against boys or they will be labeled as hateful. I too have sympathy for the children claiming they are transgender. Unfortunately being raised on social media has created this contagion and how we are currently handling it is not helping them.

We are not letting the women athletes decide. Do you understand why the Penn athletes have to speak out anonymously?

Wise Old Man wrote:

I’m the father of two daughters, both great runners, one currently competing in college. I’ve discussed this issue with both of them many times and in fact my elite running daughter does not think I go far enough and would be upset if trans women were barred from her NCAA competitions. I don’t think Lia should be able to compete at that level and she thinks she does and that my view is a white male supremacist view. She told me in HS that if she was in a race that barred a trans girl from running she would have walked off in protest and so would have her teammates. I know you want to paint the opinions of female runners as a monolith, but they are not. I assure you my daughter is not being coerced or forced into these opinions by some woke mob. She genuinely believes that trans girls are her sisters and deserve dignity and the ability to compete as they choose.

RunRagged wrote:

Wise Old Man wrote:

BTW, I agree with you. Let women athletes decide. I know for sure in the HS league in which my children ran, the young women would have overwhelmingly voted for inclusion. Also, stop calling me names. My daughter would call you an old white feminist and that’s about as damning as being an old white man. Your progressive values on behalf of white women have not kept up with the times.

I never said that girls in HS or young women in college should be making sports policy about this matter or any other. Let them be at the table and have a voice, sure. But to be the only ones to decide? No way.

I think it would be unfair for all concerned to place the responsibility for resolving such matters on people so young because the human brain does not finish developing until age 25-26. And because through no fault of their own, most high school and college students tend to have limited life experience, and are overly concerned with what other people - and particularly their peers - think generally, and think of them specifically.

Most persons who are of HS and college age don't have a full grasp of all the issues at hand - nor enough experience in areas like conflict resolution, policy-making and jurisprudence - to craft policies that are well-thought out, balanced, finely tuned and fair to all parties. As a result, I believe putting such young people in the driver's seat here would be placing an undue burden on them and would result in bad policy.

The policy mess that exists today is the doing of full-grown adults, and the grown-ups should resolve it - not hand it off like a hot potato to still-developing young people who haven't reached full maturity yet and don't have the benefit of being able to draw on a lot of life experience, insights gained from considerable world travel and contact with diverse cultures, and specialized learning and expertise in relevant fields like law, governance, medicine, developmental biology, sports physiology and history.

I. Rex wrote:

Wise Old Man wrote:

I’m the father of two daughters, both great runners, one currently competing in college. I’ve discussed this issue with both of them many times and in fact my elite running daughter does not think I go far enough and would be upset if trans women were barred from her NCAA competitions. I don’t think Lia should be able to compete at that level and she thinks she does and that my view is a white male supremacist view. She told me in HS that if she was in a race that barred a trans girl from running she would have walked off in protest and so would have her teammates. I know you want to paint the opinions of female runners as a monolith, but they are not. I assure you my daughter is not being coerced or forced into these opinions by some woke mob. She genuinely believes that trans girls are her sisters and deserve dignity and the ability to compete as they choose.

Then you have done a great job raising your kids and you deserve commendation for it even if you dont fully share their thinking on this particular subject. Nothing indicates good parenting more than raising children capable of empathy who recognize the need for tolerance and are willing to stand up for others and not just think of themselves. And as far as Im concerned your instinct to lean toward inclusion as much as possible in this debate is the absolute right one. And the notion that kids would declare themselves female simply to win some races is absurd, yet so many people here and wherever this debate takes place seem to continuously argue that way. This is a complicated issue with no quick simple solution that is perfect for everyone. So we should at least approach it without all the disingenuous grandstanding and boogie man creating. The notion that you are somehow a "male-supremacist" for nodding TOWARD acceptance and inclusion is a joke. In fact anyone who tells their daughter "dont even think you can ever hope to compete with a boy ever" is the "male-supremacist" in my book...

As far as Im concerned, Lia Thomas is the exception that proves the rule that almost every trans kid that plays a sport does so invisibly on some JV field hockey team or in some Z division soccer league where there are tons of kids better than them and the main reason they are playing the sport is because they want to hang out with their friends and have fun, not because they want to win state championships. Yet so many would tell those thousands of invisible kids just living their lives without hurting anyone that they shouldnt be allowed to do that because it might allow a Lia Thomas to win races in college.

Wise Old Man wrote:

RunRagged wrote:

I never said that girls in HS or young women in college should be making sports policy about this matter or any other. Let them be at the table and have a voice, sure. But to be the only ones to decide? No way.

I think it would be unfair for all concerned to place the responsibility for resolving such matters on people so young because the human brain does not finish developing until age 25-26. And because through no fault of their own, most high school and college students tend to have limited life experience, and are overly concerned with what other people - and particularly their peers - think generally, and think of them specifically.

Most persons who are of HS and college age don't have a full grasp of all the issues at hand - nor enough experience in areas like conflict resolution, policy-making and jurisprudence - to craft policies that are well-thought out, balanced, finely tuned and fair to all parties. As a result, I believe putting such young people in the driver's seat here would be placing an undue burden on them and would result in bad policy.

The policy mess that exists today is the doing of full-grown adults, and the grown-ups should resolve it - not hand it off like a hot potato to still-developing young people who haven't reached full maturity yet and don't have the benefit of being able to draw on a lot of life experience, insights gained from considerable world travel and contact with diverse cultures, and specialized learning and expertise in relevant fields like law, governance, medicine, developmental biology, sports physiology and history.

Ok fair enough.

I’m sure your an accomplished person who has done a great deal for the sport and my daughters should be grateful to you. They are powerful, brave young women. They literally kick a-s and don’t back down. I’m very proud of them and I’m sure you would be impressed. They take after their mother who is a professor of surgery in the #1 university dept of surgery in the US. If you want to see a world full of misogyny, athletics has nothing on surgery. I truly don’t appreciate you calling me names, and that does not further this discussion. You really don’t know anything about me. The feminism of my wife (just checked with her) and my daughters includes trans women. You may not agree with this, or thinks it lacks historical perspective or is regressive in some way. They feel it is progressive. I hope we can arrive at a solution that balances inclusion and competitive fairness and from my perspective the one size fits all approach does not make sense.

RunRagged wrote:

Wise Old Man wrote:

BTW, I agree with you. Let women athletes decide. I know for sure in the HS league in which my children ran, the young women would have overwhelmingly voted for inclusion. Also, stop calling me names. My daughter would call you an old white feminist and that’s about as damning as being an old white man. Your progressive values on behalf of white women have not kept up with the times.

As for your remarks about my race: where the hell do you get off making assumptions about my skin color? And why are you now trying to make this convo about race? Sounds like you are following the playbook set out by a trans lobby group late last year which suggested a good way to respond when losing the arguments about males using gender identity claims to enter female sports is to change the subject to race, and equate likening support for female-only sports with support for racial segregation and white supremacy.

Yes, I've called your ideas misogynistic and male supremacist because I believe they are. I also politely used your user name - which is Wise Old Man. I wasn't the one who brought up your age, nor have I made an issue of it. I simply used your user name.

I have never called you a white old man. Nor would I. Slagging people for their immutable characteristics, and discounting people's views simply because of their age, ethnicity, race, religion, etc are not practices I engage in.

For the record: I don't believe everyone who has outdated, old-fashioned or antiquated views is old. Nor do I believe all old people have ideas that are old-fashioned. Just like I don't believe all misogynists are male. A lot of girls and women are misogynists, and a lot of boys and men are not.

If your daughter would call me "an old white feminist" for my ideas, it sounds like she believes everyone who has certain characteristics all think the same, and that people who have certain views must all have particular characteristics in common. In my opinion, that's pretty racist, ageist and ignorant.

If your daughter thinks only old white women hold my views, it sounds like she lives in rarified bubble. I suggest you and she check out Lipstick Alley to see what many young American black women have to say on the topic of males using identity claims to horn in on, and dominate in, girls' and women's sports. Also, I suggest she look into views on this topic held by many women of many diverse races - and ages - from around the world and all over the US. Such as Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie from Nigeria, Vaishnavi Sundar of India, Rosario Raquel Sanchez from Costa Rica, Allison Bailey of the UK, and Benita Fitzgerald Mosley, Sanya Richards-Ross and Alanna Smith of the US.

Lots of athletes who are neither white nor women either have been outspoken in their opposition to males being able to use gender identity claims to horn in on girls' and women's sports. Such as Edwin Moses, Willy Banks, Herschel Walker and Daley Thomas. Should their views be discounted because your daughter thinks those men are old too?

Since you brought race into this, I think it should on the record that in track & field specifically, the opportunities and scholarships opened up by US federal statute Title IX have benefitted a vast number of girls and women who belong to groups that are racial minorities in the US, predominantly African Americans. In fact, Title IX has been as much as, possibly more than, a boon to black girls and women in the US as any legislation aimed specifically at redressing racial disparities and discrimination.

Moreover, since we're talking about minority groups: making girls' and women's sports - and locker rooms - "inclusive" of males who claim to "identify as" girls/women automatically eliminates participation of girls and women from nearly all Muslim families, as well as large numbers of girls and young women from racially and ethnically non-white families who are current- or recent-generation immigrants from Central America, South America, the Caribbean, the Middle East, South Asia, East Asia North Africa and sub-Saharan Africa. I've spoken to quite a few persons of Native American heritage who oppose the "inclusion" of some males in female sports too. Coz contrary to what gender identity ideologues constantly claim today, the myriad physical differences between the two human sexes are not constructs imagined and invented by white Europeans - and cognizance of these differences wasn't imposed on the rest of the world by European colonialists in the era since Columbus. The peoples who historically inhabited the world outside of Europe twigged to the material realities of biological sex long, long before whitey from Europe showed up and started colonizing.

Making girls' and women's sports - and locker rooms - inclusive of some males also disadvantages girls and women who are disadvantaged in a host of other ways. For one, ending sex separation makes participating in sports and using locker rooms uncomfortable, difficult or even impossible for girls and women who have experienced sexual abuse and assault at the hands of males. Lots of girls and women have good reason to feel distressed by having to undress in the sight of males, no matter how those males say they identify, and by having to see naked male bodies including penises and balls in the girls' and women's locker room, showers and sauna.

But why do you keep bringing your daughter(s) into this? Why use your children to cape for you? I have sons, and I can't imagine any discussion regarding sports policy, politics or much else now or in the past where'd I'd try to bolster my position by saying, "my son A tells me this" and "my other son B believes that." My sons would also take umbrage if I did. They're not props I as a parent have right to trot out to use in battles I've chosen to fight about issues that are of concern to me.

If your daughter(s) want to join in the convo, fine - let her/them speak for themselves. But it seems weird to me that in your posts you keep invoking their views instead of making arguments and providing evidence to convince others of the merits of your views.

At any rate, please do me the courtesy of not speculating or making assumptions about my race. You can slag me off all you want for the hilarious presumptions you've made about my race. But your claim that only white women believe in protecting female-only sports has no basis in fact. Nor does your contention that "your progressive values on behalf of white women have not kept up with the times."

RunRagged wrote:

Wise Old Man wrote:

BTW, I agree with you. Let women athletes decide. I know for sure in the HS league in which my children ran, the young women would have overwhelmingly voted for inclusion. Also, stop calling me names. My daughter would call you an old white feminist and that’s about as damning as being an old white man. Your progressive values on behalf of white women have not kept up with the times.

As for your remarks about my race: where the hell do you get off making assumptions about my skin color? And why are you now trying to make this convo about race? Sounds like you are following the playbook set out by a trans lobby group late last year which suggested a good way to respond when losing the arguments about males using gender identity claims to enter female sports is to change the subject to race, and equate likening support for female-only sports with support for racial segregation and white supremacy.

Yes, I've called your ideas misogynistic and male supremacist because I believe they are. I also politely used your user name - which is Wise Old Man. I wasn't the one who brought up your age, nor have I made an issue of it. I simply used your user name.

I have never called you a white old man. Nor would I. Slagging people for their immutable characteristics, and discounting people's views simply because of their age, ethnicity, race, religion, etc are not practices I engage in.

For the record: I don't believe everyone who has outdated, old-fashioned or antiquated views is old. Nor do I believe all old people have ideas that are old-fashioned. Just like I don't believe all misogynists are male. A lot of girls and women are misogynists, and a lot of boys and men are not.

If your daughter would call me "an old white feminist" for my ideas, it sounds like she believes everyone who has certain characteristics all think the same, and that people who have certain views must all have particular characteristics in common. In my opinion, that's pretty racist, ageist and ignorant.

If your daughter thinks only old white women hold my views, it sounds like she lives in rarified bubble. I suggest you and she check out Lipstick Alley to see what many young American black women have to say on the topic of males using identity claims to horn in on, and dominate in, girls' and women's sports. Also, I suggest she look into views on this topic held by many women of many diverse races - and ages - from around the world and all over the US. Such as Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie from Nigeria, Vaishnavi Sundar of India, Rosario Raquel Sanchez from Costa Rica, Allison Bailey of the UK, and Benita Fitzgerald Mosley, Sanya Richards-Ross and Alanna Smith of the US.

Lots of athletes who are neither white nor women either have been outspoken in their opposition to males being able to use gender identity claims to horn in on girls' and women's sports. Such as Edwin Moses, Willy Banks, Herschel Walker and Daley Thomas. Should their views be discounted because your daughter thinks those men are old too?

Since you brought race into this, I think it should on the record that in track & field specifically, the opportunities and scholarships opened up by US federal statute Title IX have benefitted a vast number of girls and women who belong to groups that are racial minorities in the US, predominantly African Americans. In fact, Title IX has been as much as, possibly more than, a boon to black girls and women in the US as any legislation aimed specifically at redressing racial disparities and discrimination.

Moreover, since we're talking about minority groups: making girls' and women's sports - and locker rooms - "inclusive" of males who claim to "identify as" girls/women automatically eliminates participation of girls and women from nearly all Muslim families, as well as large numbers of girls and young women from racially and ethnically non-white families who are current- or recent-generation immigrants from Central America, South America, the Caribbean, the Middle East, South Asia, East Asia North Africa and sub-Saharan Africa. I've spoken to quite a few persons of Native American heritage who oppose the "inclusion" of some males in female sports too. Coz contrary to what gender identity ideologues constantly claim today, the myriad physical differences between the two human sexes are not constructs imagined and invented by white Europeans - and cognizance of these differences wasn't imposed on the rest of the world by European colonialists in the era since Columbus. The peoples who historically inhabited the world outside of Europe twigged to the material realities of biological sex long, long before whitey from Europe showed up and started colonizing.

Making girls' and women's sports - and locker rooms - inclusive of some males also disadvantages girls and women who are disadvantaged in a host of other ways. For one, ending sex separation makes participating in sports and using locker rooms uncomfortable, difficult or even impossible for girls and women who have experienced sexual abuse and assault at the hands of males. Lots of girls and women have good reason to feel distressed by having to undress in the sight of males, no matter how those males say they identify, and by having to see naked male bodies including penises and balls in the girls' and women's locker room, showers and sauna.

But why do you keep bringing your daughter(s) into this? Why use your children to cape for you? I have sons, and I can't imagine any discussion regarding sports policy, politics or much else now or in the past where'd I'd try to bolster my position by saying, "my son A tells me this" and "my other son B believes that." My sons would also take umbrage if I did. They're not props I as a parent have right to trot out to use in battles I've chosen to fight about issues that are of concern to me.

If your daughter(s) want to join in the convo, fine - let her/them speak for themselves. But it seems weird to me that in your posts you keep invoking their views instead of making arguments and providing evidence to convince others of the merits of your views.

At any rate, please do me the courtesy of not speculating or making assumptions about my race. You can slag me off all you want for the hilarious presumptions you've made about my race. But your claim that only white women believe in protecting female-only sports has no basis in fact. Nor does your contention that "your progressive values on behalf of white women have not kept up with the times."

Wise Old Man wrote:

CooperBridge wrote:

You state your daughters are on a college team. Your daughters are not competitive runners who have won significant titles, been regarded as top athletes in the state or nation, or have truly committed to becoming an elite runner. If they were, they would not be worried about the inclusion of a biological male in the girls' race over them being able to compete in a fair race.

I also work with youth as a teacher and coach. Do you question why in the last 10 years the number of youth with "gender dysphoria" has increased by 1000%? You are using the usual talking points of how we are contributing to the young person's mental health issues by not playing along with someone who is not even allowed to decide if they can pierce their ears. As we are guilted into accepting a teenager's affirmation they were born in the wrong body because of something they saw on Tik-Tok, and force our daughters to compete against boys or they will be labeled as hateful. I too have sympathy for the children claiming they are transgender. Unfortunately being raised on social media has created this contagion and how we are currently handling it is not helping them.

We are not letting the women athletes decide. Do you understand why the Penn athletes have to speak out anonymously?

My daughter is strong runner and won some “important” titles in HS (she was a 5:05 1600 m runner as a junior and never got to run track as a senior because of Covid). She was better at xc, led her team to two large state xc titles. Her college career is just starting, but given her talent level, no she’s not going to be an elite runner in college or a pro. Still she takes the sport very seriously, trains hard, tries hard. I promise she’s very sincere about her beliefs regarding trans women runners. I doubt she’d feel differently if she could run a 4:35 mile or a 4:20 mile, but right now she can’t, so it’s a moot point.

As for the changes over time. I graduated HS in 1981. Our HS class had 500 people and there was not a single LGTBQ person out in our class at the time of graduation. Was that because there were none? Of course not. It’s because nobody dared come out. I think that’s what’s happening among the trans community now in HS. As for gender non conforming or non binary kids, that’s more complicated and I do think there is a theoretical and political bent to this. Really not the same issue as a trans individual. Again, I am not in denial about the advantages biological males have over females in running. I continue to think the harm done to the rare trans athlete at the HS level who would be forced to run in their own special category or in the boy’s category out weighs the harm done to the cis female runner who ends up 2nd because the former athlete is allowed to compete. You have concluded differently. For me in youth sports that’s all I care about, minimizing the harm and not sacrificing to much of the good. As we move into elite competition in college and beyond, I think the biological categories should be more strictly enforced, just as we also start testing for doping. I don’t agree that the integrity of all women’s athletics is compromised by allowing trans girls to compete in youth sports in the category of their choice. I don’t think this slippery slope argument makes any sense. If people really think the100 m final of their local frosh soph meet is qualitatively and quantitatively the same as the Olympic 100 m final, I feel sorry for them.