Taro wrote:
30 year Japan veteran wrote:
Yes, no white person I have told the story to believes it, so you are the norm.
Maybe they don't believe it becomes it comes down to believing either what they've actually experienced for years or what you're telling them.
Or maybe it is because they it is because it is because if they accept that as true, it is too depressing for them because many of them are trapped there by marriage. Or maybe it is because they are insensitive and can't read the air. I remember one conversation I had with a student who was actually one of my favorites. We were talking about similar issue. I told her that most foreigners think that Japanese like them. She thought is was hysterical. She laughed and said that is just our tatemae (surface)
Ironically every Japanese person I tell this to immediately agrees it is true and often gives examples.
No, the idea that most Japanese would say that white foreigners are "subhuman," as you claimed, is simply not credible.
I didn't say most Japanese. I said Japanese I told this to. I only told it to Japanese I was close to. And as I said I originally heard it from a Japanese woman. And the actual term I used was not human.
Yes, I do speak and read Japanese fluently. I have found that the most unhappy westerners in Japan are often those that are fluent
I'm fluent, too, and as I implied, I'm very happy living in Japan. It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that how people like to interact with others depends greatly on their own personality.
Is your implication that it is my personality that caused this experience? I lived there 30 years and talked to hundreds of foreigners. Most of them would admit, after you knew them well, that they felt lonely and sad that they could not break through the barrier. I was very interested in this subject and talked to so many people about how to fit in. The general consensus was it is smarter not to try because if you try you will just be consistently disappointed.
1. They understand what is happening around them. 2 After making that enormous effort to learn the language, they are still treated as an outsider.
What do you mean by "treated as an outsider?" That's far too cliché to be informative. Many people feel like an outsider in their own country. Just look at the "deaths of despair" that are so common now in the U.S.
I mean in general of being allowed inside the group. You are always the guest. Your identity is always first as a gaijin.
I belong to a couple of Japanese running clubs and often hang out at the local surf shop (at least in non-pandemic times). I'm always the only foreigner around. I constantly exchange Line messages with my Japanese friends. I've never felt like I was being shunned in any way. As I said, I think much depends on your own personality.
That's the second time you alluded to personality. I also belonged to two different running clubs. I joined many ekidens and races with my team. I was a very popular member. I just got tired of trying to start conversations with people in which I was the only one making any attempt. Regarding personality, I was a very popular teacher, person in Japan. I was friendly and made many attempts to join different all Japanese groups. I could tell you countless stories about joining churches, clubs, PTA meetings where in a crowded room there was magically a circle of empty seats around me and my family. I also met many people who were fluent in Japanese and would join there local dojo and profess their love for Japan. But most of them when you got to know them well would confess to extreme loneliness and a feeling of being ostracized.
I think what many westerners misinterpret is they think that the way Japanese act on the surface is their real attitude/way of thinking. If you are fluent you know that tatemae is everything in Japan.
Of course. But that applies to ALL social interactions in Japan, not just those between Japanese and foreigners.
Yes, but Japanese understand that the interaction is tatemae. Many foreigners don't. For example when a Japanese person says your Japanese is great he often means the opposite
I am glad you are having a positive experience in Japan. Actually I did too in many ways. There are many positive things about Japan. For example the infrastructure is amazing. You can go anywhere you want without a car. The trains are clean and incredibly efficient. Many of the cities are beautiful and incredibly safe. You can go anywhere you want at all times of the day and be 95% safe. The cost of living is surprisingly low. They have a rich cultural history and have manged to retain their culture through temples, shrines etc.
And there's also the excellent and extremely affordable healthcare, which makes it much easier to start a business in Japan than in the U.S. Yes, it's a wonderful place to live.