Is there any commonly known sport, game, or activity you can become world-class in without having any talent?

hard worker with zero talent wrote:

Give me $10 million and a random enthusiastic able-bodied 18 year old guy, and I'm sure I can turn him into a top 30 ultrarunner within 15-20 years. He almost certainly won't be breaking any WRs and might not even win any major races, but you don't need any talent to make the top 30 in the world.

So you could have turn 18 yr old Reese Hoffa or Joe Kovacs into a top 30 ultrarunner?

mid D guy wrote:

hard worker with zero talent wrote:

Give me $10 million and a random enthusiastic able-bodied 18 year old guy, and I'm sure I can turn him into a top 30 ultrarunner within 15-20 years. He almost certainly won't be breaking any WRs and might not even win any major races, but you don't need any talent to make the top 30 in the world.

A top 30 in the world is at least a sub 2:30 marathoner (necessary but not sufficient to excel at Ultrarunning). Would you bet that any random able-bodied 18 year old can break 2:30 in the marathon? This is the top 1% of the average marathon time in the US, which is taken off a cohort of subjects that is already self-selected for their ability to run a marathon.

That is correct for the shorter ultras like the 50K and 50-mile distances.

But you don't need to be a 2:30 marathoner to excel in multi-day events like Badwater, the Moab 240, and the Barkley. The skill sets are totally different and can be acquired by a no-talent guy with sufficient time, money, and motivation.

Just Another Hobby Jogger wrote:

hard worker with zero talent wrote:

Give me $10 million and a random enthusiastic able-bodied 18 year old guy, and I'm sure I can turn him into a top 30 ultrarunner within 15-20 years. He almost certainly won't be breaking any WRs and might not even win any major races, but you don't need any talent to make the top 30 in the world.

So you could have turn 18 yr old Reese Hoffa or Joe Kovacs into a top 30 ultrarunner?

Yes, if the distance is long enough and if they somehow had the motivation to dedicate themselves to ultrarunning instead of throwing:

The opposite would obviously be false, as there is no way you could train the vast majority of ultrarunners (when they were 18) to become top 30 shot putters.

Just Another Hobby Jogger wrote:

Ice dancing. It is called "figure skating for people who cannot land triples." And most ice dancers are former singles skaters who switched events because they could not compete in singles.

Singles skaters (especially women) have to go through regionals and sectionals to get to the US national. Any ice dancer can directly go to the Nationals because there are so few competitors at the senior level. The talent level at the Nationals drops sharply after the top four or five teams. If you are untalented skater, but you still want to compete in the Nationals and be on national TV, switching to ice dancing is the rational decision.

This is all generally true, but you forgot to mention the hardest part of ice dance for females: finding a partner. The female/male ratio for figure skaters, at least in the US, is at least 20 to 1. Even serious and relatively talented girls can go years and never find a partner whereas talentless guys can schedule auditions for partners and get their pick.

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I_h wrote:

hard worker with zero talent wrote:

I'm thinking ultrarunning, horse racing, curling, and maybe NASCAR or poker. Though it would be debatable on whether ultrarunning is "commonly known".

Thoughts?

It's obviously Race Walking.

I'll overlook the comment from the original author where he questioned whether even ultrarunning was commonly known, and add that I have no horse in this race.

Remind me how Taylor Ewert did in the Olympic Trials again, would you?

Politics

he wasn't "world class", but a cousin (strictly speaking a second cousin) of mine was/is by no means an unusually athletic guy (I don't think he was on any of his HS sports teams) & had some modest success in motor racing, ended up having several dozen IndyCar Series starts (no wins). the latent pool of people who really get into those kinds of sports (starting out with karting etc) is microscopic.

I think the OP maybe confusing talent for athleticism. Being world class at poker takes tremendous talent and if you disagree I challenge you to play at a public poker table in Las Vegas and see how much money you win. The professionals take from the amateurs 7 days a week and twice on Sundays. Horse Racing is similar, the jockeys might not be strong or quick but it takes tremendous talent to ride a thorough bred horse and again I'd challenge the OP to try running a race horse on a track and see if they can hold on. The fastest I've driven was 140 MPH and it was in a straight line for about 30 seconds and it required complete focus. I can't imagine going between 150 and 200 mph on an oval track for 3 plus hours with 50 other cars.

Does one have be able to lift heavy weights, run fast, or jump high to do the aforementioned sports, no. but it doesn't mean they don't take talent. Saying a sport doesn't take taken would mean that anyone could excel or win at them but they can't. Perhaps the OP is postulating that the talent pool for ultras is small such that many ultra winners couldn't win a major marathon but most marathon winners wouldn't win a middle distance race and no sprinter is going to win a 5K or 10k. It is a different discipline.

Good God, someone said skateboarding. Maybe skateboarding doesn't require as much athleticism as a decathlete, but it sure as s#$ takes a boatload of talent to be at the top.

Old Ag wrote:

I'm an old guy with old data. Anders Garderud was a world class runner in several events and the 1976 Oly Champ in the steeple. Doug Brown was a sub 28 10k man in the seventies. And of course, let's not forget the 1972 Oly Steeple champ...Kip Keino. Also Daniel Lincoln...world class runner.

Sure there may be steeplers that attain their best results in only that event, but most of them are great runners.

I'm kinda old, too, hence my Marsh reference. To be clear, I was not talking about the OP's question. I was making an analogy between the way skating/ice dancing was described in that post and flat versus steeplechase. And one that I think is quite valid.

Perhaps it's kind of like 7-foot centers. Sure, you might be able to find a few who ACTUALLY had a level of athleticism compared to their counterpart forwards and guards. But most probably don't. Same with the steeple. MOST of them are not on the same level in the 3K or 5K as they are in the steeple.

TFP_SA wrote:

he wasn't "world class", but a cousin (strictly speaking a second cousin) of mine was/is by no means an unusually athletic guy (I don't think he was on any of his HS sports teams) & had some modest success in motor racing, ended up having several dozen IndyCar Series starts (no wins). the latent pool of people who really get into those kinds of sports (starting out with karting etc) is microscopic.

Funny you say microscopic. Like with just about everything, I have no doubt that race car drivers have abilities above your average person. But as we know, your chances of relative excellence are all about the talent pool. Small talent pool, good chances. Big talent pool, small chances.

When I went through a phase of being a NASCAR fan a while back, I used to think about how famous and admired and well-paid the Gordons and Johnsons were. And then you think, How many people in your high school ever gave race car driving a shot? Have you ever known ANYONE who gave race car driving a shot?

Again, I have zero doubt that Gordon and Johnson have well-above 50th percentile abilities driving a car. But if there were anywhere near as many race car drivers as soccer players (or pick your popular sport), would we have ever heard of them? Almost certainly no.

Perhaps there are other contenders, but off the top of my head, I think that race car driving might be at the top of the sports heap when it comes to the combination of really small talent pool and really large potential earnings and fame.

Specifically, with your list, I don't believe that Garderud was on the same level in flat events. Keino certainly WAS, of course. Brown and Lincoln certainly were not. So 25%, I think, in this sample. My guess is that the average is at least somewhat lower than this.

More recent exceptions probably include Saif Saeed Shaheen and Moses Kiptanui. One easy thing to do (at least at the WC level) - and that I just did - is peruse the all-time steeplechase list and decide which of them were similarly successful in the 15, 3, 5, or 10?

Fencing is a joke. There must be what, 3000 competitive fencers in America at most?

It’s like sailing or horse riding. You need money and classes to get started and you also need to pay to travel and compete. It’s not a high school or public ally available sport and there are high barriers to entry.

I imagine D1 fencing in America is an easy way to get into an Ivy League school.

They aren’t freak athletes at the top level of Fencing. Sure they’re quick and coordinated etc but I don’t think anyone sees the fencing in the olympics and is in awe at the athleticism on display. I think of it on the same level as sailing, polo, or other “rich white people” sports.

Checkers, if you start at a young enough age and spend enough time on it.

The talent pool is way shallower than in chess. Are any of your HS classmates serious checkers players? When was the last time you've heard of a checkers tournament? They obviously exist, but they're incredibly rare.

Hobby jogger 2021 wrote:

I_h wrote:

It's obviously Race Walking.

I'll overlook the comment from the original author where he questioned whether even ultrarunning was commonly known, and add that I have no horse in this race.

Remind me how Taylor Ewert did in the Olympic Trials again, would you?

Didn't know her so I had to google.

Kind of proves my point. She is a talented runner but that buys you nothing in race walking.

That's why they have that technique component to level the playing field and have it accessible to many people.

Stubbornly hammering that strange movements into your brain over a few years is key.

Take Alex Schwazer.

Couldn't cut it as ice hockey player.

Back of the pack as a runner in youth races.

No success in cycling despite massive effort.

Picks up race walking and a few years later he is your Olympic champ.

Bookmark this thread.

If Taylor Ewert is going to invest a few years she might become a great race walker. Mainly(!) because of the effort put in and not because of her "running talent"

A 7 footer has a >10% chance of playing in the NBA. Something like 30% if they play Europe or D-league.

Those are the best odds for someone becoming top in world without talent.

Transgender woman weightlifter

pikle rik wrote:

A 7 footer has a >10% chance of playing in the NBA. Something like 30% if they play Europe or D-league.

Those are the best odds for someone becoming top in world without talent.

You say that as if being very tall isn't part of the relevant talent for basketball!

Oddly enough, I think Jakob Ingebrigtsen might be the pinnacle of the highest achievement with least amount of talent possible.

He has no outstanding natural speed and his running form has flaws, but through savvy of his coach-dad, support of his elder brothers and hard systematic training since the age of 7, he managed to win olympic gold.

Goes to show, that hard work in the right environment goes a long way.