Mary Cain's complaint is online

fat at 27 wrote:

henrik wrote:

Agree with you, except maybe calling Rupp a robot — because he is not on social media, do you think differently about him?

I'm trying to understand, why Mary would not leave the group once she started experiencing negative (in her perception) comments from her coach? Was she agreeing on those comments and trying to adjust? Or she didn't agree and wanted to leave but didn't know how? Then where were her parents? And now, is this lawsuit her own idea? What is she missing, and what potential win accomplish but money??

Galen being a robot is really just a testament to his emotional balance which I’m sure has served him extremely well in this sport. I’m a huge fan of his.

Galen is a runner that Belichick would love, and I mean that as a sincere compliment with no sarcasm.

Work, no BS, no media, just results.

hasjkdhjaskd wrote:

KudzuRunner wrote:

Exactly. Thanks for remaining a voice of reason.

If you think my first two points have any merit, then surely you'd infer that I find Cain's claims frivolous. Since I find her claims frivolous, why wouldn't I suspect she was seeking someone else to sue? Individual posters on letsrun may be random bullies, but the site's owners allow the posts to go unchecked, damaging reputations and potentially market value of athletes.

Like your post calling a 5’7” 120 teenager fat?

Prima Donna wrote:

I don’t see this complaint ending up anywhere close to what she’s asking. They will be settling for much less. First this is a he said she said case. She will need witnesses to help her prove the things he allegedly said. Secondly there is a statute of limitations. Likely many of her so called injuries she blames him on will be taken out of the complaint by a judge because it’s been over a year. If they remain she will need to prove without a doubt that Al caused them. Very hard to do. The only “injury” I see holding up is emotional abuse and that isn’t worth even a million. Sounds like sour grapes - ended up not being such a great runner and blames it on others

They never expect to get what they are originally asking for. That is why they say the case is "settled"

jecht wrote:

fat at 27 wrote:

Galen being a robot is really just a testament to his emotional balance which I’m sure has served him extremely well in this sport. I’m a huge fan of his.

Galen is a runner that Belichick would love, and I mean that as a sincere compliment with no sarcasm.

Work, no BS, no media, just results.

Doesn't that describe just about any elite runner?

wholeofthemoon wrote:

hasjkdhjaskd wrote:

Also, can anyone name a 5'7 120+ pound female who is any good at distance running? I ran my best times at 5'7 108, and I'm a guy. My PRs were all faster than Mary's. It might be that I was underweight and would have performed better at 115 lbs, but I was never over 120 lbs, even before I began training. There's no way I could have been that heavy and been successful. I personally think the 114 lb weight goal that was set for Mary was reasonable.

.

Are you kidding me? At 5'7 121, Mary Cain had a bmi of 18.9. That is on the light end for female middle distance runners.

Mary Decker 5'6 112

Suzy Favor-Hamilton 5'3 3/4 110

Kara Goucher 5'7 123

Raevyn Rogers 5'9 140

Ajee Wilson 5'8 135

I could continue to list elite female distance runners with similar or higher bmi s but I think I have proven my point.

I think the real "problem" if you can call it one is that BMI doesn't tell the whole story; it's an imperfect metric. Yes, her weight was numerically in line with the above athletes but she was a "soft" 120, ie. she lacked a lot of strength and muscle tone that these older woman have developed over time. Time was something that Salazar didn't give Mary, he tried to force her to change her body composition too quickly and while it was still developing. Something that a lot of coaches are just now really starting to realize and recognize is that unlike men who generally have a continuous progression after they hit puberty, woman generally go through a second phase of physical development around age 18-21 where their body changes (often more suddenly than it did during the original puberty phase at approx 12-15 years). This can be an issue for many female collegiate runners because they find that their times stall and injuries can crop up. It is extremely common to add a bit of padding during this phase when estrogen is very high (not conducive to running fast). It is clear to me from photos that Mary was going through this while Salazar was yelling at her to lose weight but because ones body is trying to kind of fully form and develop losing weight during this period is relatively difficult compared to doing so at other times (therefore it makes sense that she felt as if she was trying and failing to lose weight). Interestingly, ones appetite increases as the body craves calories in order to use to finish growing (therefore it makes sense that Mary was probably hungry a lot, stealing Clif bars to satisfy her body's natural appetite, but also felt guilty for doing so). I will reiterate that this happens to MANY female runners who are competitive at that age and if you treat your body well, it adjusts and it is relatively easier to shed some of the excessive weight after you have finished growing but fighting the change leads to the kinds of things Mary experienced. She likely would have been o.k. if Salazar had given her more grace but now we'll never know and I fear that she will never be a competitive professional runner again (would love to be proven wrong about that).

^This. If she was a world class runner she would be world class by now regardless of Salazar

Ruppian in its simplicity wrote:

NAIA nobody wrote:

.... it seems to me that a key legal issue will be the terms of Cain's Nike contract and the amount of discretion it gave her on choosing, hiring and firing her coach. If the contract gave her complete power over choosing her coach, then her case will be extremely weak because she could have just changed coaches at any time without any loss of income to her.

This is the most important point that no one knows about....also, Nike and Salazar will ask if all this "abuse" can be claimed when she and her parents asked to join the club and Salazar in April of 2019 (just months before his banning). How does this square with years of abuse and a $20 million lawsuit?

And.. then there’s the statute of limitations. Her so called “damage” including injuries is over a year old and will get thrown out of the complaint

I wonder if I can sue anyone for suffering from depression and eating disorder. None of it was my fault. My coach should have prevented all my problems even if my emotional problems and lack of confidence were a pre-existing condition. This is a reasonable time to sue because I just read this lawsuit and realized that everything that went wrong and my complete bodily control and thinking was my coach’s responsibility. *winks at lawyer*

I remember watching a video of the NOP athletes doing a workout after an indoor track meet. Galen was there, as was Mary, another female runner (can't recall who), and probably a couple others. They filmed the repeats and I remember all of the athletes but Mary were pretty much down to business and got the job done, even though it was clear they were in great discomfort by the end. I remember seeing Mary sitting on the track kind of complaining, and Alberto not really giving her much attention. I think Alberto called for one more rep, and the other runners dutifully went to execute it, and Mary gave Alberto a kind of incredulous look like "why are you making me do the last one after I said I was tired?" It struck me at the time and stuck in my memory...it seemed a little unprofessional of Mary. The other runners didn't complain, despite clearly being gassed too. So I'm guessing that Mary was pretty immature and used to being able to dictate things a bit more and get out of workouts. That clearly didn't work with Alberto. Welcome to being a professional runner, Mary. I'll try to find the video so you can watch it yourself.

But "the original puberty phase" for girls is not approx 12-15 as you say, it's considerably earlier. Puberty in girls is only precocious - abnormally early - if begins before 8. It's very common for girls to have begun breast development at or by 9-10 and to get their periods at 11. The average age of menarche (first menstruation) is soon after the 12th birthday, and a lot of pubertal development has to have occurred already for that to happen.

I think you are mistaking some of the more visually obvious external signs of female puberty that are very noticeable in the eyes of male outside observers with actual puberty in girls.

Also, I'd appreciate it if you'd share sources and citations for your claim that girls/women go through two distinct phases of development - one circa 12-15 and the other at 18-21 ,"where their body changes (often more suddenly than it did during the original puberty phase)." I was under the impression that girls and young women continue physically developing in myriad ways throughout adolescence and early adulthood - not in two distinct, discrete phases separated by several of year of stasis as you say.

As for your claim that this second alleged phase of development is "when estrogen is really high" - you seem to be suggesting that at 18-21 women across the board experience a spike in estrogen levels. I don't think this is true, though it might be the case for female athletes whose normal adolescent development has been delayed or interrupted due to training regimens, calorie restrictions and eating disorders. Also, since estrogen (and other hormone) levels vary quite a lot in girls & women during the course of the ovulation-menstrual cycle, I wonder exactly when in the cycle you are speaking of when you say "estrogen is really high" in college-age women.

I do agree that Salazar, and male coaches generally, don't know enough about how female human bodies normally and naturally develop to be imposing their ideas about what constitutes optimal, healthy body weight and composition on teenage girls and young women as they do. Nor do these guys seem to have much regard for the fact that female bodies have evolved to be very different to male bodies. As a result, many male coaches, many guys generally - and unfortunately many girls and women too - don't see that it's unreasonable to judge the fitness and development of female athletes by standards and timelines based on male athletes, and on the assumption that male bodies represent not just the human norm, but the ideal.

fortherecord wrote:

I wonder if I can sue anyone for suffering from depression and eating disorder. None of it was my fault. My coach should have prevented all my problems even if my emotional problems and lack of confidence were a pre-existing condition. This is a reasonable time to sue because I just read this lawsuit and realized that everything that went wrong and my complete bodily control and thinking was my coach’s responsibility. *winks at lawyer*

No, you can't. Cain's case is extremely unusual and if she wins, it will not open the door for something like you described.

My guess is she is trying to establish a pattern of conduct and an ensuing punitive consequence. I believe her mission is to make abusive coaches and programs that hire abusers think twice in the future.

Salazar and his corrupt org did in fact rob Mary of a career. They failed a child on every level. The culture at Nike, led by Salazar should be held accountable for its failures to multiple athletes, not just Cain.

And by the way, when can people speak freely about the abuse of female runners led by Hasay? While she may also have been a child she should be outed for her horrendous treatment of others and the insidious bullying at Nike.

Teebai wrote:

And by the way, when can people speak freely about the abuse of female runners led by Hasay? While she may also have been a child she should be outed for her horrendous treatment of others and the insidious bullying at Nike.

Huh?

reer wrote:

Teebai wrote:

And by the way, when can people speak freely about the abuse of female runners led by Hasay? While she may also have been a child she should be outed for her horrendous treatment of others and the insidious bullying at Nike.

Huh?

Ummmmm ever hear of hasay’s horrible treatment of other athletes?

I haven’t lol

Teebai wrote:

My guess is she is trying to establish a pattern of conduct and an ensuing punitive consequence. I believe her mission is to make abusive coaches and programs that hire abusers think twice in the future.

Salazar and his corrupt org did in fact rob Mary of a career. They failed a child on every level. The culture at Nike, led by Salazar should be held accountable for its failures to multiple athletes, not just Cain.

And by the way, when can people speak freely about the abuse of female runners led by Hasay? While she may also have been a child she should be outed for her horrendous treatment of others and the insidious bullying at Nike.

Jordan was never a bully?!