Warholm runs 45.51... with no hurdles

El Keniano wrote:

Nope. Hurdles are for those who can't hack it in the flat.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

the macdaddy og yo wrote:

The Unkle wrote:

You honestly think a world class 400m hurdler cannot run 2 secs faster in the open 400m without all those hurdles?

Yes. It depends on the athlete, of course.

For example, I’d assert the hurdles slow down Rai more than Warholm.

I mean… Warholm is constantly praised for having PERFECT hurdling technique so it’s safe to assume his 400-400h gap would be smaller than the average world class 400h, no?

Sure.

But do you really think Warholm is not capable of running an open 400m 2 secs faster than a 400m hurdles race?

The Unkle wrote:

the macdaddy og yo wrote:

Yes. It depends on the athlete, of course.

For example, I’d assert the hurdles slow down Rai more than Warholm.

I mean… Warholm is constantly praised for having PERFECT hurdling technique so it’s safe to assume his 400-400h gap would be smaller than the average world class 400h, no?

Sure.

But do you really think Warholm is not capable of running an open 400m 2 secs faster than a 400m hurdles race?

Do you really think its impossible to hurdle within 1.5 secs of your 400m?

Hurno. wrote:

El Keniano wrote:

Nope. Hurdles are for those who can't hack it in the flat.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

Yes, I do. If you're good enough to win the 100m or 400m, there's no way you choose the less well-known and less respected hurdles. The flats have higher profiles and more prestige. WVN record in Rio is held in much higher regard than KW's in Tokyo.

El Keniano wrote:

Hurno. wrote:

You have no idea what you are talking about.

Yes, I do. If you're good enough to win the 100m or 400m, there's no way you choose the less well-known and less respected hurdles. The flats have higher profiles and more prestige. WVN record in Rio is held in much higher regard than KW's in Tokyo.

You do understand that not everyone thinks like you right? Most people do hurdles because they like the extra challenge/thought it looked fun. I've coached state champions in the hurdle races, believe me, they could have won the flat races as well. In fact, I had an athlete do that one year just for the fun of it. Winning hurdle championships is more impressive to most, from my experience.

Less respected hurdles? That's your opinion. most others seem to respect the added difficulty knowing they couldn't do it.

Who chases prestige? A small group of narcissists?

Is that record held in higher regard, or is that just your opinion?

The way most 400m hurdle athletes get their start is not directing from under performing in 400m dash. Most 400mH athletes start from not sprinting as well versus their peers in 100m which, depending on gender turns into 100mH or 110mH. At some point, some athletes believe they will do better versus their peers in 400mH. With modern shoes, modern tracks and everything else, I consider 44.50 F.A.T. 400m world class 400m. Are some of you on this thread still trying to make K. Warholm a world class 400m dash guy? K. Warholm is a 400mH guy. That is what he is. Arguing if 400mH athletes are inferior athletes is like arguing if 100m butterfly swimmers are inferior swimmers to 100m freestyle swimmers. Maybe, but they all get medals for winning.

Not sure why you highlighted that particular fact! I was aware of Kratochvilova's 47.6, but cited the 47.75 she ran at the same meet where she ran her 47.99 (then WR) pb. I also quoted the current WR holder's (Koch) best split time compared to her best open time, to show that the two fastest women in history ran relay splits very close to their open bests. This was to highlight that Moses best open of 45.6 is not a true reflection of his ability over 400 flat considering he has run a 44.1 relay split.

You clearly went to the same source I used, as it was compiled in 2015 (c.), prior to a sub 48 sec split by Felix.

You said it yourself, hurdles are track's version of the butterfly and the walk could be the breaststroke. Fortunately, runners don't have to run backwards for their version of the backstroke.

We're not calling them inferior athletes, just that their events have lower profiles and prestige. The whole world stops for 10 seconds for the 100m dash for which there was a huge upset this year. Few, if any, people not into the sport hardcore watched or remember who won the 110mH. That confrontational and ungracious Sha'Carri woman wouldn't be getting the same attention had she been a hurdler. There's a reason KW wanted to try out the 400m in Lausanne and Steven Gardiner isn't rushing to try out the hurdles. Which reminds me, btw: after her double 200m/400m triumph in Atlanta, Marie-Jose Perec contemplated switching to the 400mH because of "unbeatable" world records in the sprints.

Dude why are you even talking about steroid users?

Nobody cares.

Everyone on this forum already knows that nothing Kratoch or Koch accomplished even counts.

You're like literally obsessed with them.

Go to the powerlifting forum and go brag about some steroid infested powerlifters with 3D shoulders while you're at it.

paris2024hawk wrote:

The Unkle wrote:

Sure.

But do you really think Warholm is not capable of running an open 400m 2 secs faster than a 400m hurdles race?

Do you really think its impossible to hurdle within 1.5 secs of your 400m?

Assuming you have run several flat 400m at your highest level of fitness, yes, absolutely think it impossible to run a 400 m hurdle race that is less than 2 seconds slower than your open pr.

The Unkle wrote:

Assuming you have run several flat 400m at your highest level of fitness, yes, absolutely think it impossible to run a 400 m hurdle race that is less than 2 seconds slower than your open pr.

We’ve been over this a million times on LetsRun. You can’t assume someone to a performance they haven’t run. You’ve been provided with at least 4 runners who are 47.0x or faster and they’re all well within +2s compared to their open PR. So that’s 4 out of the top 6 performers in history and you’re still trying to push this argument?

llort_vbo wrote:

[quote]The Unkle wrote:

Assuming you have run several flat 400m at your highest level of fitness, yes, absolutely think it impossible to run a 400 m hurdle race that is less than 2 seconds slower than your open pr.

We’ve been over this a million times on LetsRun. You can’t assume someone to a performance they haven’t run.

Of course you can. Ten hurdles slow a 400m runner.

If you have a 400m hurdler that has never seriously run a open 400 and has a hurdle time that is faster than his or her open, are you going to argue that he or she is actually faster with hurdles?

A little common sense please.

Looking at the world class athletes who frequently ran both races, like Angelo Taylor (44.05 and 47.25) or Kerron Clement (44.48 and 47.24), one would conclude the hurdles add at least 2 seconds to the time (3 seconds for Taylor).

You actually dispute the fact that the hurdles slow down 400m runners?

I would assume you don't.

Is it me or did you just massively shift the goalposts?

Tell me where I said that hurdles don’t slow runners down. The question is how much.

I think 400mH runners are incredibly talented. It is a unique race. Of course some of that talent transfers to the flat race, just not as much as you think.

It’ s unlikely that young’s 400m pr from april 1992 was the best he could do. You should look at Clement and Taylor’s 400m to 400mh times also, they raced it much more than Young and Moses

I noticed that you have twice skipped dos Santos. Apparently he doesn't fit squarely in your narrative.

When dos santos did 45.78 this year early April he did 49.56 in the 400m hurdles the week after. He gradualy progressed in the 400mh trough the season, but didn't do any more 400m races. To think he was a 45.78 runner in Tokyo is insane and obviously wrong

El Keniano wrote:

Hurno. wrote:

You have no idea what you are talking about.

Yes, I do. If you're good enough to win the 100m or 400m, there's no way you choose the less well-known and less respected hurdles. The flats have higher profiles and more prestige. WVN record in Rio is held in much higher regard than KW's in Tokyo.

That is ridiculous. Warholm's record is exponentially more famous than Van Niekirk's race, just like Warholm himself is exponentially more famous than Van Niekirk.

Who cares about the specialized track and field realm, and value assigned to a number? Enter the real world. Warholm's race was heavily anticipated and will be the signature moment and memory from Tokyo. People remember where they were. I have mentioned merely the numbers 45.94 on sites that have nothing to do with track and field, and instantly people know what I am referring to. There is not 1% chance that I could type 43.03 on those forums and have anyone know what it means. And that gap will merely expand over the years and decades.

Van Niekirk's race was not anticipated at all. He wasn't even winning his heats. It just happened, from an outside lane and doomed to obscurity to everyone except track and field nerds. That's why nobody cared about Van Niekirk in Tokyo. The networks didn't feel compelled to do any behind the scenes piece and fill everyone in about the rugby injury, etc. Van Niekirk simply wasn't important enough. Contrast to Karsten Warholm. If he falls off or has some type of life changing situation between now and Paris, the networks will cover it extensively once Paris arrives. They'll recognize that the audience needs to know and wants to know.

Also, the 400 has really fallen from prestige. I don't think it is permanent but currently nobody cares. The tipoff was which events NBC chose to cover live. Those events were mandated to have a morning final in Tokyo so they could be carried live in the United States in primetime. This year the events isolated for that prestige were men's and women's 400 hurdles, men's shot put, and men's 100 hurdles. It is the same thing they do with swimming, when all finals were during the morning so they could be covered live. Meanwhile the 400 was a replayed oh by the way.

Regardless, the reason some 400 hurdlers don't lose much time from their flat time is that they are long striders with a maximizing game plan. They aren't making constant decisions. Warholm just like Edwin Moses 40 years ago uses 13 strides between barriers and attacks the race. He always wants to use his left lead so occasionally he is forced to raise to 15 strides. He did that on barrier 10 in Tokyo. Put Warholm in the flat 400 and all of a sudden his 13 strides mean nothing. He doesn't have a strategic and energy edge over the guy in the adjacent lane. It's a confused hybrid of his 400 hurdling approach and a subjective mishmash of what he thinks he's supposed to do all the way around. Do I accelerate now or later? Consequently it looks mechanical and unimpressive. Basically it's like watching Adam Peaty swim freestyle.

erico12343 wrote:

When dos santos did 45.78 this year early April he did 49.56 in the 400m hurdles the week after. He gradualy progressed in the 400mh trough the season, but didn't do any more 400m races. To think he was a 45.78 runner in Tokyo is insane and obviously wrong

He was a 48.28 guy in 2019 before this year's 45.78. In fact dos Santos has twice run 45.78 and, according to the report above, split 44-mid, chasing but unable to secure one more spot for gold.

He's probably not a 44.7 guy open.

Karsten got attention because he's a Nordic white guy.

Lets all admit this to ourselves.