LRC note: This thread was deletd by a volunteer mod in 2023 but now given the fact that Katir has been suspended we have re-instated it.
The bigger question is if you hate doping in athletics so much and think every athlete who runs a good race is not clean why follow athletics at all? Makes no sense. Why not follow a sport where you can actually get some satisfaction out of seeing a top performance and not feel the need to automatically label it as fueled by drugs. How about ballet? Lol
Katirs improvement is huge. He is a major outlier now amongst Spanish runners or runners of Moroccan descent however you want to categorize. Note that the best Spanish runners are going 3:32ish (Mechaal, Fontes) without huge 5k results. Outside of El Bakkali, Morocco has nobody of note. So if your assertion is that these countries are huge doping hotbeds with state-run programs he is either by far the best doper (an odd designation) OR by far the best talent as their doping ability has waned. It wasn’t that long ago that these countries had 5-6 guys who could run 3:31/13 flat pre super spikes era. So to me it makes the most sense to think of him as an individual. These are suspiciously big improvements regardless of country/descent but the testing system has improved so if he’s doping as blatantly as you guys think he will be popped
THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:
Point of order: Hassan was passport suspicious, it was likely doping for just farah/rupp
Thank you - I stand corrected.
Charlie Chaplin wrote:
4hw45h wrote:
Jakob went from 3:39 to 3:31 at the age of 17.
Oh but he is white, sorry.
And then "he was maturing", etc.
White = Clean for most Letsrun posters and Katir doesn't even have a white name. So he can't be clean.
Yeah, play the race card and ignore all the busts and scandals involving Spanish/Moroccans.
And yes, there is a difference between a 17 year old improving 8 seconds, and a 23 year old doing the same when he only imroved 3 seconds the previous 2 years.
Jakob also ran a 3:54 mile at 16, and his improvement was steady.
So would you be shocked if Cole Hocker ran 3:31 at the Olympics? Would he be a suspect doper?
ex-runner wrote:
Number 12 wrote:
You ask us to do a little research into Muslim culture in order to understand Katir, and then in the next sentence ask us to stop referring to him as a Spanish Moroccan" because he is apparently 100% Spanish.
Sorry Ghost, but last time I checked, the native Spanish Christians re-conquered all of their remaining land from the Muslims in the Iberian peninsula in the 15th century. Yes, Spain, like most of Western Europe, is undergoing a process of reverse colonalization and Islamization, but it's still early to claim that somebody can be 100% Muslim culture, and 100% Spanish or European.
If you need to understand Muslim culture to understand Katir, he is as much Moroccan (where he gets his Muslim religion and culture from) as Spanish. BTW, has to be said, being Muslim and being clean in middle-distance running doesn't appear to be a good match, from Morocco to Bahrain.
Are the mods reading this blatant and idiotic racism?
Now being a Muslim makes you a doper??!
For a start, religion has absolutely nothing to do with doping. Let's make that clear.
But if you wanted to draw some silly parallels then you could point out that all of the Kenyan dopers are Christian, the Russians are Christians, the Bahrainian athlete Ruth Jebet is Christian, all of the American sprinters are generally Christians etc.
You are replying to Coevett. His blatant and idiotic racism is allowed here.
sub-3:30 jumps, with bold denoting where the athlete skipped 3:29 as a first sub-3:30. A Sub-3:29 foray into the sub-3:30 club is rare, with some of the names on that list suspected cheats.
3:28.51: Lagat
3:28.6: Ngeny
3:28.68: J Ingebrigtsen
3:28.75: Makhloufi
3:28.76: Katir
3:28.81: M Farah
3:28.86: Morceli
3:28.91: Kwemoi
3:28.95: Cacho
3:28.98: Baala
PRs of everyone else who first landed in the sub-3:30 'club':
3:29.10: T Cheruiyot
3:29.14: Ramzi
3:29.27: S Kiplagat
3:29.29: Chirchir
3:29.43: Niyongabo
3:29.46: D Komen
3:29.47: Wightman
3:29.47: A Choge
3:29.50: Ndiku
3:29.51: Saïdi-Sief
3:29.51: McSweyn
3:29.53: Laâlou
3:29.58: Souleiman
3:29.59 El Guerrouj
3:29.67: Manangoi
3:29.67: Cram
3:29.71: Aouita
3:29.72: DK Komen
3:29.77: Coe
3:29.77: Maree
3:29.78: Kiprop
3:29.83: Iguider
3:29.83: Iguider
3:29.90: Chebseba
3:29.91: L Rotich
3:29.91: Willis
3:29.91: Wote
what happens when tanner and willis make the final and hocker misses out !!!! you yanks are so sad (:
4hw45h wrote:
Harambe wrote:
Well, there's the issue
The issue are idiots like you who don't accept times from certain nationalities.
Xenophobic pricks.
Why do you jump to the race conclusion? His results are somewhat suspect regardless of nationality or race.
three stripes wrote:
Literally no one knew this dudes name before indoors and he just ran 3:28. Lol.
You wait until Mak Daddy shows up at Tokyo.
Charlie Chaplin wrote:
KaareV wrote:
Obvious doper here, and obvious doper there. A lot of guilt by association here and other Association Fallacies. Some ought to sue their schools and get their money back. And a lot of abstract reasoning.
BTW, Katir has a nice running style. He is very happy. And in the years to come there will be some nice duels between him and Jakob. Theoretically there may be a lot of doping out there or not so much. But we don't know, do we?
To claim that Katir is suspicious on account of his background is not an example of 'association fallacy'. To use the cop out 'we don't know do we' is just a pathetic doping apologist excuse. We didn't 'know' about Ramzi until he was popped, but it was still obvious to any reasonable observer at the time.
1. Yes, it is in this context. Because there is nothing even suspicous in his background, it is constructed. Marroco and Spain, doping. A clear 'association fallacy'.
2. To use etc. and then you put a name on me, not nice. But that's how it goes in certain cultures.
3. It was obvious etc. it never is until proven.
KaareV wrote:
BTW, Katir has a nice running style.
The most elegant style of running I have seen in years, especially with his long hairs.
No, you don't understand.
It is not fallacious to see an athlete's association with doping cultures as a red flag. WADA requires athletes from Morocco and Kenya to be subjected to minimum testing. This is because of their proven doping problems. In other words, WADA operates on the principle that a Moroccan or a Kenyan athlete is more suspicious than others. It may be unfortunate for each clean athlete from those countries, but it's necessary and results in a cleaner sport.
You giving a name of 'association fallacy' to a line of reasoning that is based on statistics and experience, doesn't make it a fallacy.
A guy improving 8 seconds in a year is suspicious. When we've seen this kind of thing many times before in athletes associated with his Spanish and Moroccan background, it's doubly suspicious.
He's from spain, it's 100% accurate to connect the dots to Spanish doping culture.
Google "wada concerned by doping survey in spain" to see how prevalent this is in spanish football.
As a matter of fact, according to WADA anti-doping figures, only two samples tested in spain since 2016 have been from athletes who lit up the cup, meaning virtually only very foolish people would fall afoul of a urine test for PEDs.
two out of competition tests
As OP of this thread let me get some things out of the way.
1. This thread is about Katir. It’s no use bring other athletes in to say “but you don’t say they’re doping for x reason”
2. ANY ATHLETE that makes these improvements is likely doping no matter their country.
3. I find enjoyment in this sport regardless of doping because I like running and competing
His performance jump is about consistent with Shelby Houlihan’s.
Shelby Houlihan was never suspected much of doping on these boards. Shelby Houlihan has now tested positive, and people still defend her.
I guess it must be because he is from Spain, and she is from America. America has never had a doping culture problem. All Americans are very clean. I can’t think of ANY doping busts. Not even really small ones!
Katir is dirty. Houlihan has a cat and likes Harry Potter and Mexican food. Houlihan is clean.
macacobot3000 wrote:
I agree that a substantial amount of Jakob fans may have a racial bias, but we should be skeptical of Katir since he’s running at the highest levels and runs for Spain, a country with a long history of doping and we should be skeptical of Jakob who has a dad that is abscessed with blood levels and he’s from Scandinavia a region infamous for developing and using blood doping in multiple sports. We should ideally be skeptical of both runners for running super human times that confirmed dopers have run and both are from countries or regions who have a history of doping.
Abcessed?
That's awesome
Katir's manager is Miguel Mostaza, who had an athlete withdraw from the 2010 European Cross Country Championships because the runner "could be involved in an alleged doping case" -- what we know as Operation Greyhound.
Mostaza had worked with Fermín Cacho, whom Eufemiano Fuentes hinted having doped -- in addition to a having worked with number of spanish cyclists.
On Cacho: "we knew that his mentality was going to make the race very difficult for all the favorites because a final of 1,500 is a very open race It can be developed in twenty thousand ways, it can be tactical, it can be fast, the first part slow, the second fast, it can be the last 400 very fast and Cacho ran them in 49 seconds. Only very great talents can do that, and with his personality and with his mentality, in a very tactical career,it was very difficult for him to miss the medal and that is why it did not escape him."
No, that's not why it escaped Cacho (
)
And, that could be one reason why suspicion isn't escaping Katir, either.
three stripes wrote:
As OP of this thread let me get some things out of the way.
1. This thread is about Katir. It’s no use bring other athletes in to say “but you don’t say they’re doping for x reason”
2. ANY ATHLETE that makes these improvements is likely doping no matter their country.
3. I find enjoyment in this sport regardless of doping because I like running and competing
hi OP, sorry, your thread is trash. he may well be doping - his improvement is extraordinary - but if you are going to label him "the most obvious doper" then you should offer up some direct or circumstantial evidence other than his fast times this season.
is he a more obvious doper than rashid ramzi? than naser?
if people have some examples of katir associating with specific people/doctors with doping histories (eg every us sprinter coached by dennis mitchell!), or of him evading testing/scrutiny (hello el guerrouj, farah etc etc etc), or of acting aggressively/suspiciously particularly when discussing their performance/coaching/doping (sorry hassan, but this is you), or of surprising body composition changes (eastern bloc women of the 80s? jeter? greene? etc) or anything other than his times and nationality and the relative lack of testing worldwide last year (none of which he could do anything about in the event he's clean) then please explain them.
AtletaEspanolo wrote:
If he's "to the gills" Spain is the new Russia. He's been training at a National Training centre in Altitude the whole time. I mean, he is easy to get hold of to test. He could be tested every hour if the Spanish Anti doping wanted....
Spain has been rife with doping across all sports for years. Even the Sports Minister said a few years ago that "Spain has a doping problem".