Tom “Tinman” Schwartz and Drew Hunter/Tinman Elite have parted ways

Wasn't WVN coached by his grandmother??

Drunk Letsrun wrote:

rojo wrote: I mean hell Abbey D'Agostino was a superstar in college and has done very little as apro.

WTF, she did better than you and your brother! She's done better than most collegiate champions, too.

She won 7 NCAA titles and hasn't broken 15:00. Next.

Not sure why it matters whether the brojo's are faster than D'Agostiono or not but what you wrote is not true. They are men. Therefoer they are faster than Abbey. Wejo ran like 28 flat for 10k and Rojo ran 2:23 in the marathon. Abbey can't come close to either of those times.

Les wrote:

rojo wrote:

But when I first heard of this last week, I said to Jonathan, "Please name one athlete other than Mo Farah who has run way better after switching coaches mid-career."

Shalane Flanagan from Cook to Schumacher. Jenny Simpson from Benson back to Wetmore. Shannon Rowbury won a medal with Cook but ran all her lifetime bests after she moved to NOP.

Is this a joke? You think you are disproving what I wrote? You are makign my point.

A coach is like a jockey. The runners are the Secretariats.

Flanagan was already a super stud with Cook. She won a bronze in the 10,000. She ran 1444 and 3022 with cook. Under Jerry, she ran 1449 and 3039.

Simpson was a stud with Wetmore, won a world title with Benson and then was a stud with Wetmore.

Rowbury was a stud with Cook and Salazar.

You are making my point. These athletes were all superstars with whomever was coaching them..

But I'm not against coaching changes. If Jager dumps Schumacher like I keep urging him (tongue in cheek) to on my podcast and he wins WC gold in 2022 under me and John Kellogg, I'm not going to act like I invented Evan Jager. He was damn good under Jerry already.

iykyk wrote:

rojo wrote:Does Tinman even get paid by adidas?

Yes

No he Does Not!

By your same logic Mo Farah was a 12:57 stud before he went to NOP. He only ran a few seconds faster (12:53) after going to Salazar. Is 12:53 "way better" than 12:57? I mean in all instances we're talking about the same athletes regardless of who coaches them. The same genes, the same physical talent. By your logic it shouldn't matter who coaches them. But the athletes themselves think coaches matter. I would say Flanagan's career really blossomed under Schumacher. Part of that is she took up the marathon. Part of it was she really wasn't in sync with Cook despite her medal, she's stated that in interviews. Flanagan chose to leave Cook for Schumacher. Same with Simpson. Yes she won a medal with Benson, but did so poorly the next season she decided she needed to leave her. (Benson, I believe, is no longer coaching.) Rowbury won a medal with Cook but her career was slumping around 2011-2012 when she was supplanted by Uceny. If Cook had not retired I think Rowbury would have left him anyway. There's no deny ing she ran faster with Salazar. She was stuck at 4.00 for years under Cook with no improvement. If what you're saying is true, a mega-talent like Alan Webb should be successful with any coach. Yet Webb changed coaches like he changed underwear. He's one of the few athletes coached by both Schumacher and Salazar. Both were unsuccessful with the "stud" Alan Webb. You are basically saying that only talent matters. Coaching doesn't matter. But the athletes themselves know that coaching matters. If it didn't matter, why would anyone change coaches?

Nonsense. If two coaches follow different approaches, the results always will be different because of different stimulus in training. The trick is to find a new or second coach who understands the previous stimulus and work on a new one to provide better results. Many elites have experienced this. The list is endless. The unlucky ones who change without the new coach knowing this fact. Drew will 100% improve, nor because of tinman training but because he will gain new stimulus with the new coach.

Hell they don't even need to rename themselves...they're already better known as Tincan Subelite, so here you go! Or maybe they will just go on that stupid punk rock band tour they were promoting a while a go

I think Drew Hunter probably needed to explore working with a different coach just to see if all the Tinman haters were right. Having said that, Drew could have been with another coach through high school and be an unknown who never made it onto LRC forums.

I think Tinman is a very knowledgeable coach, but attracts negativity because of his personality.

That aside, it wouldn't surprise me that the split isn't so much about the squad collectively deciding that Tinman training is not good, but because of some relational fallout. Other posters have demonstrated that his athletes have all improved markedly.

So the Tinman Elite group will either continue to use the training principles that they have been using and over time continue to improve, or they will go looking for something different and likely improve slightly in the short term, but then go backwards.

Could it be that the Tincan runners are frustrated because they aren’t as young anymore and so the improvements don’t come so easily? And did the Tincan coach surgically embed a tin can into his chin after some sort of accident? How did they get the nickname?

Wow what an interesting thread. Question is how many of the posters have been a coach at any level?

There are a lot of armchair quarterbacks but that is ok.

First of all I was coached by John Cook and he was a complete jerk who lived off his reputation with Abdi Bile. To be honest I ran with him for a year and there is nothing that he did that stood out from a coaching perspective. Maybe a few drills here and there and long hill repeats but he copied all that from Peter Coe.

Coaching is a very tough gig! As a private coach if your athletes don't perform they will look elsewhere.

Talent is talent. Doesn't matter at what level but if someone is gifted as a coach you know right away. Trust me on this one. Long term athletic development is a journey. Drew was an extremely good high school runner but you have to have somewhere to go when you leave that space. I have seen it regularly where high school runners do the 70-80 miles per week the perfect training and when they try to get to the next level it is hard.

Why? Because you have done it all.

I had a young boy come to me at 11 and recently he ran 3;43 for 1500m and his volume is in the 50-60 miles per week territory. As a coach I hope that his next coach Vig will be able to get him to the next level which who knows what it will be.

I feel sorry for Tom as he has done a great job with his athletes and to be honest if 7:39 for Drew Hunter over 3k isn't enough well the time is to move on.

He won't have problems picking up a coaching gig.

Great coaches are everywhere you just don't know there names.

Good luck Tom and best of luck to the guys he left behind.

rojo wrote:

one last thing. While I don't think most of the Tinman guys are top talent, I'm glad they are going for it. I remember being in my early 20s and thinking, "I don't want to be 75 and wonder what if I'd gone all in."

Along those lines, this is cool.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acFhKxLBvqk&t=31s

But you just said that guys who are 25 shouldn’t quit their job in finance to pursue their dream?

So which one is it?

rojo wrote:

But a college coach has it way easier. Many of them purposely withhold attention. They want the athletes to CRAVE It. They want to appear to be the guru. It's a psychological ploy. Plus creating this 'guru myth' helps in recruiting as well. But you only have to control them for a few years, then they leave.

Mind f*cking pros isn't going to work so well. They are adults and they shouldn't be leaving in 3 years.

/

So mental and emotional abuse is okay if you’re a college coach?

Sorry but no

(Also I wasn’t allowed to quote this post because of the profanity that Rojo used)

SlowFatMaster wrote:

Reminds me of Charlie "Bird" Parker getting kicked out of Birdland, the nightclub named after him. Or Wally Amos having to call his company "The Uncle Noname's Cookie Company" since the name "Famous Amos" no longer belonged to him.

Or the McDonald brothers no longer being able to call their burger joint McDonald's because some a$$-hat convinced them to let him create a fast food empire based on their restaurant than stole their own name forcing the original to rebrand

Raymond wrote:

I think Drew Hunter probably needed to explore working with a different coach just to see if all the Tinman haters were right. Having said that, Drew could have been with another coach through high school and be an unknown who never made it onto LRC forums.

I think Tinman is a very knowledgeable coach, but attracts negativity because of his personality.

That aside, it wouldn't surprise me that the split isn't so much about the squad collectively deciding that Tinman training is not good, but because of some relational fallout. Other posters have demonstrated that his athletes have all improved markedly.

So the Tinman Elite group will either continue to use the training principles that they have been using and over time continue to improve, or they will go looking for something different and likely improve slightly in the short term, but then go backwards.

Yeah I agree with this, there must have been a relationship fallout. Doesn’t seem like they left on good terms.

People need to include Brogan Austin in the list of Tinman runners as well. He’s improved a ton under him.

Look at Tinman training compared to someone like Ben True. How often does Drew do sustained work at pace? Not 5 x mile starting at 5 flat and ending at 4:10x, but 5 x mile all under 4:30

Nobody has mentioned the possibility of Adidas stepping in and forcing the change. Perhaps they felt the need to protect their investment?

Ben True is also a perfect example of someone who has changed coaches later in his career and then ran PBs

I agree that we have yet to see what Hunter is really capable of. AlSal is the devil to everyone here, but I have no doubt the first thing he would do with Hunter is change his form. That would require a lot of work and commitment but it could be done. Then start building the speed work as a 5k runner. I imagine just like with his other stars, AlSal would make Hunter build up to a much faster mile time than probably even Hunter thought about. Not to mention all the additional non-running workouts and conditioning, plus preset diet.

Also who would everyone in this thread like to see coaching Drew? Would Mike Smith be a possibility since he is at a Adidas school (NAU)? Could see him coaching Drew and then the rest of the group just copying what Drew does or finding another coach.

Cory Leslie is a choice seeing as he’s been with the team for a while and has a history of coaching (however LRC seems to be convinced he is bad at coaching).

Terrence Mahon is another that springs to mind due to the Adidas link.

Or do we see something left field like Canova or JS coaching Drew?