mask hater wrote:
She can run with the dudes if she/he/they want to. Nobody cares if you want to try your hand against stiffer competition. It’s the opposite that is blatantly unfair.
Haha. I saw what you did there......even if you didn't.
Editor's note on 7/1/2024- This 3-year-old thread is getting a lot of clicks as lots of people are googling Nikki Hiltz after NBC published an article "Transgender runner Nikki Hiltz is headed to the Paris Olympics" on her making the Olympic team. The article did not explain that Hiltz's is a biological female. Hiltz also is also not on testosterone as World Athletics forbids that.
mask hater wrote:
She can run with the dudes if she/he/they want to. Nobody cares if you want to try your hand against stiffer competition. It’s the opposite that is blatantly unfair.
Haha. I saw what you did there......even if you didn't.
You ever race with one? Can't imagine it being ideal for optimum performance.
What I will say (and I'll say it again) Nikki may have unintentionally made a point about gender identity and women's sports. She isn't going to compete against men, despite sometimes identifying that way. So it begs argument that gender identity isn't enough of a factor for eligibility to compete in the women's division--at least not at the professional level.
oh letsrun.. wrote:
What I will say (and I'll say it again) Nikki may have unintentionally made a point about gender identity and women's sports. She isn't going to compete against men, despite sometimes identifying that way. So it begs argument that gender identity isn't enough of a factor for eligibility to compete in the women's division--at least not at the professional level.
I completely agree, I saw no mention of this affecting her in sports, nor should it. She can identify however she likes and that should have no impact on who she competes against....unless she starts the process of transitioning, which I don't believe is in the discussion here.
The problem is that there are many men who feel the way that she does and they think it entitles them to compete against women.
Can we dig up Hiltz’s tweets and see what she’s said about Semenya, wambui, mutola, etc? It’d be interesting to see what she thinks about trans/intersex athletes that snake her out of medals.
Lenny Leonard wrote:
GD wrote:
Here's an interesting read:
https://aeon.co/essays/the-idea-that-gender-is-a-spectrum-is-a-new-gender-prisonJust read this. I understand the deconstruction of the gender spectrum argument, but I will say that the motivations that the author projected onto non-binary and transgender people are not ones that I have ever heard an ACTUAL non-binary or transgender person say.
There is just to much assuming and guessing in here. When you just take a few minutes and talk to a non-binary person, it is so much more informative than listening to traditional woman or man say it.
That has been what was most helpful to me, a man.
______________________
What is a "traditional" woman? The issue that some people have with the gender spectrum idea is that it projects stereotypical ideas and gender identifications onto people who aren't actually traditional.
I read what Nikki wrote, and I know she's a product of her generation and our political moment, but I find myself rolling my eyes. It's not because I don't think she's suffered or felt like she doesn't fit in. It's that most of us have those experiences. They're typical--and yet people (you included, Lenny) somehow assume that those of us who don't identify as nonbinary somehow feel like we fit in all the time.
Can't we get back to the starting line and admit that everyone is confused about their identify most of the time? But our sex is biological and there is almost no confusion there. People can't really identify as a different gender because they don't know what is going on in someone else's head to know if they are the same as that person. They are in fact looking at the opposite sex and saying they identify with that person's sex. They claim they aren't but then why even discuss gender when gender is male or female and is just another way to describe sex? Maybe all of our brains are the same if they hadn't been connected to a male or female body.
Why does anyone have to come out, and why does anyone care? What people do in their private lives is no concern of mine (so long as they aren't victimizing anyone).
No I don't think most people are "confused" about their identify most of the time! Some are and that's fine of course. Are you confusing the terms "sex" (as in biological sex determined by science) and "gender" (as in how one feels they are)? Sure, gender is fluid....whatever. People can feel a certain way at certain times and identify to be the opposite sex (or not) of that which they actually are physically and anatomically. But science doesn't care about your feelings. Imagine having a "women's brain" but being stuck in a man's body? Sure, that person could (and probably would) identify as being a female as their gender. But until they have surgery and/or take a lot of hormones, their body is going to be considered 100% male by the scientific community. Even then (from a purely scientific and physical standpoint) there are going to be residual differences. So that has an effect on Men's vs Women's divisions in competitive sports. You start blurring the line between what " biological sex" means and that science, and that becomes a point of contention in strength/size related sports.
No way Jose wrote:
Can't we get back to the starting line and admit that everyone is confused about their identify most of the time? But our sex is biological and there is almost no confusion there. People can't really identify as a different gender because they don't know what is going on in someone else's head to know if they are the same as that person. They are in fact looking at the opposite sex and saying they identify with that person's sex. They claim they aren't but then why even discuss gender when gender is male or female and is just another way to describe sex? Maybe all of our brains are the same if they hadn't been connected to a male or female body.
GD wrote:
Lenny Leonard wrote:
Just read this. I understand the deconstruction of the gender spectrum argument, but I will say that the motivations that the author projected onto non-binary and transgender people are not ones that I have ever heard an ACTUAL non-binary or transgender person say.
There is just to much assuming and guessing in here. When you just take a few minutes and talk to a non-binary person, it is so much more informative than listening to traditional woman or man say it.
That has been what was most helpful to me, a man.
______________________
What is a "traditional" woman? The issue that some people have with the gender spectrum idea is that it projects stereotypical ideas and gender identifications onto people who aren't actually traditional.
I read what Nikki wrote, and I know she's a product of her generation and our political moment, but I find myself rolling my eyes. It's not because I don't think she's suffered or felt like she doesn't fit in. It's that most of us have those experiences. They're typical--and yet people (you included, Lenny) somehow assume that those of us who don't identify as nonbinary somehow feel like we fit in all the time.
I don't assume that you feel like you fit in all the time, and I apologize if I made you feel that way. I don't identify as non-binary. I feel very much male every day. I'm proud to be the home of a Y-chromosome. Do I feel like I fit in all the time? No.
Where you and I differ is that I don't feel targeted or confused by someone being non-binary. It makes sense to me even if I don't feel that way. I could see why a woman might feel more triggered than I would, especially one that has the kind of "radical" feminism described in the article.
joed|rt wrote:
Why does anyone have to come out, and why does anyone care? What people do in their private lives is no concern of mine (so long as they aren't victimizing anyone).
I know this is a troll post, but many people do care. For starters, Nikki and their friends and family probably care a lot about them living their best, true life.
Secondly, there are young people in middle school, high school, and college who feel the same way as Nikki but are constantly teased, bullied, and denigrated for it. If they see a person who is at the very top of their sport making those feelings seem like a thing to be proud of, that makes an enormous difference in their lives.
Instead of thinking, "Why didn't Nikki ask me whether I cared about this?" realize the many people that benefit from these kinds of public coming out statements. It is undeniably a net positive.
bandwagon joiner wrote:
Can we dig up Hiltz’s tweets and see what she’s said about Semenya, wambui, mutola, etc? It’d be interesting to see what she thinks about trans/intersex athletes that snake her out of medals.
Yes, interesting. Also, what if she wakes up feeling like a man the morning of the women's 1500 final? Does she decide not to run seeing that the men's Oly qualifier is 3:35?
I'm a "cis" male, and I guess if I really thought about it, there are times where I feel more masculine and times where I feel more feminine; I just don't really conceptualize them as such. It sounds like she's just describing the vagaries of personality that everyone goes through to some extent. I fail to see why this should be treated as a wholly separate category of identity, let alone why it should be afforded victimhood status (not what Nikki's claiming here, but many have).
Lenny Leonard wrote:
there are two genders wrote:
Someone explain what transgender non-binary is supposed to mean?
I work with a non-binary person. They are married to a woman. They are a teacher, so rather than being Mr. or Mrs., they use the title Mx. (pronounced “mix”). If 100 people looked at them and had to say whether they were a man or a woman, I think you would less than 70% saying one or the other based on the outfit.
Stop with the "they" tripe. "They" is a pronoun referring to more than one person and your first use of "They" above has its antecedent in "a non-binary person" - that is ONE person, not MULTIPLE persons.
rojo wrote:
Rojos friend wrote:
Sex is biology and gender is not. I think of it as analogous to another realm of biological classification: age. Some people look or present or feel they’re a different age. And there are many similarities /broad distribution observed in each age group. And there is ambiguity too. Sometimes they measure age from conception and other times from birth. Conception date isn’t always known etc. anyway we still have age group competition. Hmmm
No one measures age from conception. C'mon
Francoist wrote:
Exactly, "Some women are more masculine. Some men are very feminine"...but at the end of the day, that masculine woman is gonna menstruate and can get pregnant, and that feminine man won't be able to do any of them.
If you are a man and want to wear high heels and skirt, go ahead boy! Just be a good person to those around ya.
But J.K. Rowling was the object of scorn and contempt when she said that there is a word for "people who menstruate" - and that that word is "women."
Lenny Leonard wrote:
. I feel very much male every day. I'm proud to be the home of a Y-chromosome. .
what a weird thing to be proud of....
I was born a male and after much thought and meeting with my spiritual advisors, I have decided to recognize that I am a male, will identify as a male just as I have been for the past 28 years.
I feel so much better letting the world know this. Can I get my own division in track now.
Just me wrote:
No way Jose wrote:
Good question. How can colleges in this day and age still discriminate based on race or sex? How can they provide scholarships based on race or sex? Glad to hear that you are against it.
A common fallacy for people like you. Education is the key to a future in our country. People with college degrees are generally paid more in their occupations. Why should blacks, the poorest race in america, not be afforded more spots in college?
You'd be hard pressed to say "I was denied from college because I'm asian" "I was denied from college because I'm white"
Not at all. There is LEGAL anti-white, anti-Asian and anti-male discrimination in school admissions and anti-white and anti-male discrimination in hiring and vendor selection. And it is idiotic: I fail to see its constitutionality, it is itself racist and sexist and it has done little to improve the etiologies that brought on the under-performance to begin with. Politicians would have us believe this is all a consequence of slavery and Jim Crow and suppressing women. But which is more significant, being the 5th, 6th or 7th generation descendant of a slave or being born out-of-wedlock, as ~70% of blacks born in the USA are? And why are females given preferences over males when they live longer, do better in schools, get more college degrees, and are incarcerated at far, far lower rates than men?