Injury prone runners are going to be injured under any program. He will not have that breakthrough race(like ritz 5k) but will still eventually have major injuries
Injury prone runners are going to be injured under any program. He will not have that breakthrough race(like ritz 5k) but will still eventually have major injuries
LateRunnerPhil wrote:
Han Solo wrote:
His training would be so easy for them that they might thInk it was all some sort of elaborate prank.
LRP praises the simplicity of the system but simple only gets you so far. Read up on the training of Kenyan/world champion athletes and you’ll see that eventually you have to do more than CV reps, tempos, and strides.
Tinman understands the concept of peaking as good as any other elite coach - he adds some specific, high intensity workouts or tune-up races when his runners get closer to their peak competition.
Think about it that way - Hunter ran a 3:57 mile at moderate altitude, equivalent to a 3:54-3:55, few weeks ago off JUST CV training/tempos/thresholds/strides. Imagine what he can do once he starts to peak for a mile race. The classic Tinman base/CV training keeps someone within 97% of his maximum ability in a race, with much lower injury risk than high-intensity intervals or anaerobic capacity sessions. That will give him the last few % he needs to become ultra competitive.
Everyone works with a given talent level - Tinman training can get everyone to 97%, in a safe way. For Hunter that's 3:55, for the average HS kid it might be 4:20, for the average recreational adult 4:50. Then, with peaking and tune-up races, these times become 3:52, 4:15, 4:40. There is nothing magical about training. The Kenyan/world champion runners you mention aren't that fast because of some special training, but because their talent level is even higher than let's say Hunter, Justyn Knight, Grant Fisher, etc.
Really?
https://runningscience.co.za/elite-athletes-training-log/saaeed-saif-shaheen/So this training linked above and the training of TME is basically the same, but Shaheen was just more talented, right?
Most coaches/athletes don't train hard enough to reach their ULTIMATE potential, for fear of injury, burn out, etc. But at some point if you want to reach that level of world champion, olympic finalist, medalist, NR holder, etc, you have to go to that place and take the risk.
I just don't see the training of Tinman being enough to make that happen. You can't just throw in 6-8 weeks of race pace reps at the end of a cycle and say you really went for it. And the workouts I've seen from the group per Strava, Instagram, at the end of a cycle honestly don't seem very tough.
I'd rather be a BTC member and risk injury and maybe miss a season, but when it all clicks, be ready to run at my peak potential or with the best in the world. Think of Woody Kincaid - injured for a while, but when it all worked: 12:58.
3,500 feet of altitude for Drew's time trial has no effect on performance. Once again you are spreading FALSEHOODS and LIES.
o The term low altitude refers to sites that are below 1500 meters (4920 ft). These sites are where most of the 7.5 billion of the world’s population reside. It is also the sites for most of the world’s athletics competitions. There are negligible physiological effects of hypobaria-hypoxia at this altitude.
o Above 1500 meters (4921 ft), the decline in maximal aerobic power due to altitude exposure equals approximately 3% per 300 meters; this effect is absent below 1500 meters.
o The reduction in PO2 at altitude affects the partial pressure gradient between the blood and the tissues and thus oxygen delivery. PO2 must fall below 131 mmHg (1500 meters [Table 1])) before VO2 max is affected. This explains the decrease
Altitude (meters) PB (mmHg) PO2 (mmHg)
0 (sea level) 760 159.2
1000 674 141.2
2000 596 124.9
3000 526 110.2
4000 462 96.9
9000 231 48.4
Table 1. Altitude and its effects on atmospheric (barometric) pressure and O2 partial pressure.
Han Solo wrote:
LateRunnerPhil wrote:
Tinman understands the concept of peaking as good as any other elite coach - he adds some specific, high intensity workouts or tune-up races when his runners get closer to their peak competition.
Think about it that way - Hunter ran a 3:57 mile at moderate altitude, equivalent to a 3:54-3:55, few weeks ago off JUST CV training/tempos/thresholds/strides. Imagine what he can do once he starts to peak for a mile race. The classic Tinman base/CV training keeps someone within 97% of his maximum ability in a race, with much lower injury risk than high-intensity intervals or anaerobic capacity sessions. That will give him the last few % he needs to become ultra competitive.
Everyone works with a given talent level - Tinman training can get everyone to 97%, in a safe way. For Hunter that's 3:55, for the average HS kid it might be 4:20, for the average recreational adult 4:50. Then, with peaking and tune-up races, these times become 3:52, 4:15, 4:40. There is nothing magical about training. The Kenyan/world champion runners you mention aren't that fast because of some special training, but because their talent level is even higher than let's say Hunter, Justyn Knight, Grant Fisher, etc.
Really?
https://runningscience.co.za/elite-athletes-training-log/saaeed-saif-shaheen/So this training linked above and the training of TME is basically the same, but Shaheen was just more talented, right?
Most coaches/athletes don't train hard enough to reach their ULTIMATE potential, for fear of injury, burn out, etc. But at some point if you want to reach that level of world champion, olympic finalist, medalist, NR holder, etc, you have to go to that place and take the risk.
I just don't see the training of Tinman being enough to make that happen. You can't just throw in 6-8 weeks of race pace reps at the end of a cycle and say you really went for it. And the workouts I've seen from the group per Strava, Instagram, at the end of a cycle honestly don't seem very tough.
I'd rather be a BTC member and risk injury and maybe miss a season, but when it all clicks, be ready to run at my peak potential or with the best in the world. Think of Woody Kincaid - injured for a while, but when it all worked: 12:58.
Thanks for that link.
Also of note for me, and I agree with you: "I'd rather be a BTC member and risk injury and maybe miss a season, but when it all clicks, be ready to run at my peak potential or with the best in the world."
Hunter is already getting injured as it is
I mean you guys gotta understand all LRP does is quote things that tinman says without actually reading up on it by himself. What tinman says is the gospel to him!
randomness wrote:
Also of note for me, and I agree with you: "I'd rather be a BTC member and risk injury and maybe miss a season, but when it all clicks, be ready to run at my peak potential or with the best in the world."
Hunter is already getting injured as it is
Exactly. Tinman brags about keeping the ball rolling but Drew Hunter has actually been quite injury prone under Tinman. It begs the question - is Tinman's training to blame for Drew's injury struggles? I'd say a definitive YES.
tinman sucks wrote:
It seems like he could run so much faster with just a little more mileage and actual workouts.
Drew is still very young. His PR's to date are fantastic and show a ton of promise. "Tinman" is not the issue. Although his training is conservative (not a bad thing), he is covering the necessary workouts needed to build a strong foundation so that Drew can withstand the necessary increase in training intensity (Mileage/Workouts) he will need in order to be successful at the next level. The problem is that if Drew is prone to injury at the age of 22 while training at a fairly conservative level it's going to be very difficult to navigate this needed increase. Running some "flash in the pan" times is great but in the end, he needs to win some big races and do it consistently (USA's- X-C, Indoor, Outdoor, Roads). Sponsors want to see results especially in our U.S. Championships and don't really have an interest in fast times unless you're close to setting American/World records.
"Go Run One"
Hindsight is 2020 for the Don wrote:
Tinman is wasting his potential by training Drew. He really should be living in east Africa training the best and I mean the best talent like our Italian friend does. It would be terrific and I mean HUGE if Tinman actually had some talent to work with. And yes Im very handsome and own many properties.
He can easily find good African talents to coach online , but the problem is he can't find any of them to pay his ridiculous charges.
Hunter did the right thing with adidas and Tinman. Why I say this is because he seems happy and that what he is doing what works for him. Yes the coach is good but he also allows hunter to speak his mind and do things that he prefers rather than throwing things at the wall hoping it will stick. The individualism Hunter is allowed made him this good. Not anything else. When ur confident in yourself then you start to run well. This is a lesson for everyone. Do what’s best for you and your body first before you have anyone jam anything down your through. You know yourself the best and what works for you should be developed on that rather than some other worldly training program. I found this to help me a lot during COVID-19.
Yesterday, according to Strava, Drew did 5x1200 closing in 3:05 followed by 5x200m then 5x60m “all out.”
Seems like a tough workout that also focuses on finishing speed. I wonder if Tinman read this thread...
5x1200-3:45-3:36-3:27-3:17-3:05
5x200-29-29-28-27-27
5x60 meter- all out
That is easily one of the dumbest workouts I've ever heard. 3:45 is 5 min pace per 1600. 3:36 is 4:48 pace. 3:05 is 4:07 pace.
It's unfortunate that Drew is brainwashed by Tinman and doesn't understand he needs a real coach.
NJ fan wrote:
5x1200-3:45-3:36-3:27-3:17-3:05
5x200-29-29-28-27-27
5x60 meter- all out
That is easily one of the dumbest workouts I've ever heard. 3:45 is 5 min pace per 1600. 3:36 is 4:48 pace. 3:05 is 4:07 pace.
It's unfortunate that Drew is brainwashed by Tinman and doesn't understand he needs a real coach.
What on earth is that session supposed to achieve?
I’m not a tinman fan, don’t agree with his philosophy either, but that’s not really that bad of a workout. Seems like the 1200s are progressing from threshold to 3k pace and getting some 200s at about mile pace.
I don’t really like the extreme variety of paces, but I don’t think it’s fair to take a workout out of context and say it’s not a good workout.
sizlin wrote:
I’m not a tinman fan, don’t agree with his philosophy either, but that’s not really that bad of a workout. Seems like the 1200s are progressing from threshold to 3k pace and getting some 200s at about mile pace.
I don’t really like the extreme variety of paces, but I don’t think it’s fair to take a workout out of context and say it’s not a good workout.
You will literally get no benefit from that workout. It is the equivalent of going to the gym and doing one set of 10 on every machine. Yeah you did stuff, but not nearly enough of any one thing to elicit adaptations from your body.
Doing the all out sprints at the end ruins the quality of them (meaning it won't actually increase speed) and significantly increases the risk of injury.
NJ fan wrote:
5x1200-3:45-3:36-3:27-3:17-3:05
5x200-29-29-28-27-27
5x60 meter- all out
That is easily one of the dumbest workouts I've ever heard. 3:45 is 5 min pace per 1600. 3:36 is 4:48 pace. 3:05 is 4:07 pace.
It's unfortunate that Drew is brainwashed by Tinman and doesn't understand he needs a real coach.
This is just a "cut-down" workout, something that has been used by top coaches for many decades. But as soon as Tinman prescribes it to his athletes it's suddenly a "nonsensical workout".
I'll tell you guys a secret. There are no magical workouts.
It's not like if instead of this workout he does 5x1200 all in 5 min pace, suddenly he will get huge benefits and become a faster runner.
It's not like if instead of this workout he does 5x1200 in 3:20 (all same pace), suddenly he will run 13:10.
But if he does 5x1200 progressive like he did, nothing is going to happen.
If there is a bad workout, it would be 5x1200 in 3:05 (4:07/mi pace), because there is only so much even elite athletes can handle long reps at 4:07 mile pace. That would be the one leading to burnout/injury.
But doing CV/threshold training 90% of the time, and then doing a workout where the later reps get faster until the last one is very fast, seems like a sensible approach.
People here are too obsessed with "trashtalking" anything that has Tinman or Schwartz (his real name for those who don't know) in it that they are not objective anymore when evaluating workouts. Also, it was done at altitude so it's worth even more.
NJ fan wrote:
sizlin wrote:
I’m not a tinman fan, don’t agree with his philosophy either, but that’s not really that bad of a workout. Seems like the 1200s are progressing from threshold to 3k pace and getting some 200s at about mile pace.
I don’t really like the extreme variety of paces, but I don’t think it’s fair to take a workout out of context and say it’s not a good workout.
You will literally get no benefit from that workout. It is the equivalent of going to the gym and doing one set of 10 on every machine. Yeah you did stuff, but not nearly enough of any one thing to elicit adaptations from your body.
Doing the all out sprints at the end ruins the quality of them (meaning it won't actually increase speed) and significantly increases the risk of injury.
It could just be a maintenance workout. Like I said, I don’t really agree with Tinmans ideology, but taking one workout and saying it’s bad and therefore all tinman training is bad doesn’t really make sense.
I’d be perfectly happy to do a workout like that when there aren’t meets to train for. These guys should be focused more on getting mileage up than just hammering workouts.
Sorry Phil.
I know you love defending Tom but doing sprints "all out" at the end of 5 x 1200 and 5 x 200 seems nonsensical.
5 x 60m "all out" is a neuromuscular workout.
That completely gets defeated when the neuromuscular system is fried beforehand. Had he just stopped after the 200's I wouldn't have been as confused by the structure.
Han Solo wrote:
Think of Woody Kincaid - injured for a while, but when it all worked: 12:58.
In a "race" only against his own teammates. I'm not anti-time trialing or intra-club meets; it's more that I'd rather see races that aren't curated and have fields of actual competitors, not just your training partners.
For the amount of flack people gave Galen Rupp on these boards (talking about "Rupp certified"), I find these BTC only "races" to be just as ridiculous.
NJ fan wrote:
5x1200-3:45-3:36-3:27-3:17-3:05
5x200-29-29-28-27-27
5x60 meter- all out
That is easily one of the dumbest workouts I've ever heard. 3:45 is 5 min pace per 1600. 3:36 is 4:48 pace. 3:05 is 4:07 pace.
It's unfortunate that Drew is brainwashed by Tinman and doesn't understand he needs a real coach.
Do not understand this workout.
Why not 5 x 1200 working from 10k to 5
K pace;
3;21, 3;18, 3;15, 3;12, 3;09
End of workout
ExPhys wrote:
Sorry Phil.
I know you love defending Tom but doing sprints "all out" at the end of 5 x 1200 and 5 x 200 seems nonsensical.
5 x 60m "all out" is a neuromuscular workout.
That completely gets defeated when the neuromuscular system is fried beforehand. Had he just stopped after the 200's I wouldn't have been as confused by the structure.
this is how i feel about it. it's just one step too far, and the risks probably outweigh the benefits.
everything else is very normal. basically a marathon to 3k pace cut down, followed by the 1500 pace 200s. No problem.