Caster Semenya is delusional: "I can do anything from 100m to a marathon..I call myself 'supernatural'."

If you are a track coach with female athletes, then your take on Semenya seems even more insensitive than it did before. As far as Semenya was concerned, she was female because she had been raised that way; fact is, like it or not, she does not have one of the key organs that would make her a man. It is a fact that Semenya's genitalia are ambiguous, as this is a typical feature of anyone who is 5-ARD intersex. But now I worry and now I don't trust you. If you work with female athletes, how much are you judging them in their season and training. That you can presumably work with female athletes and make a distinction between an actual female or not is worrisome. Why? Even the IAAF did not make a ruling on her sexuality. Yes they made a ruling on her testosterone levels but not about sexual determination other than that she is 46 XY 5-ARD. Clinically, many people who are 46 XY 5-ARD are raised as female because of their lack of the organ and because the parts inside are ambiguous, it's not possible to say they are male. But, I'll bite. You coach female athletes. Women are strong and yet are supposed to have a minimum amount of body fat. They come in different frames (endomorphic, mesomorphic or ectomorphic) so their relative training needs are going to be different. Their diets are going to be different and the way they manifest their bodies is also different. If you have ever recommended a supplement for weight management for one of your endomorphs, have given an ectomorph too much weight to lift or even given your female distance athletes the exact same training, then you're just being hypocritical to your rhetoric to slight Semenya. What do YOU understand about the range of difference in women?

they really that stupid? wrote:

Do a chromosome test. Write the legal qualification for women’s competition is XX chromosomes. Anyone else competes in the open category. Or, Make an event in the special Olympics. It’s a disability like any other disability. Call it what it is.

I note so many people here are calling for women to declare "XX status" while changing the men's category to 'open'. This very conveniently means they do not have to reveal personal details about themselves while demanding others do.

Don't demand something you wouldn't do yourself!

interested reader wrote:

There's no way she (whether you consider her a woman or man) could train to run a marathon in a time that would be internationally competitive for a woman. I would wager she couldn't do it for any distance over 1500 m, and almost surely not even that.

Of course, I could be wrong...

Internationally competitive is a little vague, in a championship style 3k she would be competitive

To the best of my ability, I tailor each athlete's training to their individual strengths and weaknesses. Fortunately, I coach in a state that requires an athlete to compete according to their biological sex, and have never been asked to categorize one of the .000001 percent of the athlete pool displaying ambiguous sexual characteristics. If called upon to do so, I would, without hesitation, put the needs of the many before the needs of the one.

“If you can dream it, you can do it”- Regina Jacobs

Interesting you say that as you simultaneously agree with the fact that Semenya had to categorize.

Had she been a semi-final quality runner, this would never have been an issue. In addition, after the first rounds of testing, etc, she was allowed to compete.

I suppose Americans feel like they are doing it for Ajee, and British feel they are doing it for Muir.

However, you and many of the other runners, coaches, and posters here have demonized Semenya to such an awful point that if she so much as makes any comment about racing at all, she is jumped on.

Keep in mind that Semenya has complied with EVERYTHING she has been asked or told to do, despite the disrespect she gets.

In time, you all may realize how vile you are being in addressing Semenya. And eventually, she will retire from the sport. But i don't want any of you talking later about your attitudes and how maybe you were too harsh and how she (or he, as you want it to be) was a good athlete.

And maybe you'll see Semenya in person and maybe want to say something nice, and I hope she slaps your freaking hand and walks away.

Because she too has categorized...that you're a jerk.

I wish that on any and all of her haters

Stoppit Smith wrote:

In time, you all may realize how vile you are being in addressing Semenya. And eventually, she will retire from the sport. But i don't want any of you talking later about your attitudes and how maybe you were too harsh and how she (or he, as you want it to be) was a good athlete.

Semenya retiring from the sport will be a good day for the sport.

You'll be a broken man, but the sport will be in a better place.

Superman.

Just some basic biology:

While woman are XX karyotype, the one X is inactive (Barr body), so practically woman are just a single X.

Therefore if a "man" has a defective Y, then they are essentially only an X and therefore will develop as a woman.

So XX classification will not work

There are also man who are XX , the SRY gene can "jump" from a Y chromosme to a X chromosome.

Semenya is between a male and a female as she has a rare condition.... Genetically she was meant to be a male but something had a malfunction and she ended not being masculinized enough for her genitals.

It's unfortunate for her but she can't be allowed to compete with women. Women sports would be at risk to cease to exist if masculinized athlete can be part of them.

Better place how? Running might very well be the only sport where people discredit their very colleagues. Imagine if in the 1980s and 90s,threads were created over pine or usenet discrediting every move Michael Jordan made because he didn't make the basketball team his sophomore year at Laney High. Imagine if NFL players had insulted Rolf Benirschke during his battle with Ileitis and Colitis and said constantly that he had an eating disorder. Imagine if Greco-Roman wrestlers had ganged up on Rulon Gardner, stating that Aleksandr Karelin was not at his best so he didn't beat the best. Imagine if NASCAR drivers accused the late Dale Earnhardt of driving on uppers....and insisted that it was true despite solid evidence to the contrary. Imagine if web boards would have just called John Daly a fat alcoholic and disregarded his success. Not only would it be awful for the sport but the unmitigated attacks would have been mostly untrue and certainly unwarranted for the advancement of sport. However in running, keyboard warriors and even elite runners take stabs at each other: sponsors, coaches, teammates, trainers, weight gain, weight loss, overall appearance,friendliness, lack of friendliness, ways of dressing, and, in many cases, the sexuality or perceived sexuality of an individual. Right now, the integrity of running is dying because a lot of you in the running community, elite or otherwise, think you're hot squat because you may have run college track and you think this entitles you to pick at people. The sport will be in a better place whenever some of you shut your mouths and just run.

trollism wrote:

Stoppit Smith wrote:

In time, you all may realize how vile you are being in addressing Semenya. And eventually, she will retire from the sport. But i don't want any of you talking later about your attitudes and how maybe you were too harsh and how she (or he, as you want it to be) was a good athlete.

Semenya retiring from the sport will be a good day for the sport.

You'll be a broken man, but the sport will be in a better place.

Truth tellers wrote:

There are also man who are XX , the SRY gene can "jump" from a Y chromosme to a X chromosome.

Semenya is between a male and a female as she has a rare condition.... Genetically she was meant to be a male but something had a malfunction and she ended not being masculinized enough for her genitals.

It's unfortunate for her but she can't be allowed to compete with women. Women sports would be at risk to cease to exist if masculinized athlete can be part of them.

This isn't just about Semenya as there are many who are trans or intersex. It's a very small percent but we can't simply exclude them.

I think the posters on this thread are very telling. There are those that consider a "standard American" and everyone needs to be judged accordingly. This manifests whether the conversation is race, sex or trans.

People are considering the male, cisgender, dyadic body to be the baseline and everything is considered against this. Hence special consideration for women and intersex - they need special definition. No mention that maybe the men's category needs discussion about who qualifies.

Has anyone mentioned a minimum T level for the men's category? No. Because the male body is considered the "standard".

The men's category doesn't need a minimum T level because it's effectively an OPEN category. Woman can compete but there is no advantage to do so. The women's category needs protection (like a maximum T level) because there's a competitive advantage if men compete in the women's category. It's the same reason the Junior category needs a maximum age, but the Senior category doesn't need a minimum age. There's no competitive advantage for a younger runner to compete against older runners.

appleswan wrote:

This isn't just about Semenya as there are many who are trans or intersex. It's a very small percent but we can't simply exclude them.

I think the posters on this thread are very telling. There are those that consider a "standard American" and everyone needs to be judged accordingly. This manifests whether the conversation is race, sex or trans.

People are considering the male, cisgender, dyadic body to be the baseline and everything is considered against this. Hence special consideration for women and intersex - they need special definition. No mention that maybe the men's category needs discussion about who qualifies.

Has anyone mentioned a minimum T level for the men's category? No. Because the male body is considered the "standard".

jacobs wrote:

The men's category doesn't need a minimum T level because it's effectively an OPEN category. Woman can compete but there is no advantage to do so.

The women's category needs protection (like a maximum T level) because there's a competitive advantage if men compete in the women's category. It's the same reason the Junior category needs a maximum age, but the Senior category doesn't need a minimum age. There's no competitive advantage for a younger runner to compete against older runners.

But why is the women's not considered the open and the men's listed as 'advantaged'? You would need to define a minimum T level to be considered advantaged enough to be in the men's.

Viewing it this way reveals how ridiculous the concept is.

I'm opposed to using T levels and just pointing out how people's thinking leads them to define male as the baseline.

You could field your own cross country team with all those straw men. Note: This post is in no way intended to assign gender norms to literary constructs, nor is it indicative of bias, conscious or subconscious, in regard to the superiority of cisgender scarecrows versus the androgynous type.

Did this actually make sense to you as you typed it out? Or are you an advocate of stream of consciousness debate?

Soros trolls out in full force on this one.

Stoppit Smith wrote:

Imagine if in the 1980s and 90s,threads were created over pine or usenet

Holy hell. Someone here remembers Usenet. That was my jam in the mid-90's.

OK, back to the discussion.

The Women's category isn't open because, quite simply, it's not open to everyone. An Open category has no reason to be protected. It is inclusive and allows everyone to compete. We don't define a minimum T level because that restricts athletes within the category - by definition, no longer making the category Open. And athletes below the T level have no physiological advantage within the Open category, so nobody cares if Women compete in the Open category, or if Juniors compete in the Open category. But to preserve the integrity of competition in other categories (that is, categories where athletes aren't quite as fast), we need to protect them - we care if non-Women compete in the Women's category, or if non-Juniors compete in the Junior category. Therefore we need criteria to define non-Women, and non-Juniors.

appleswan wrote:

But why is the women's not considered the open and the men's listed as 'advantaged'? You would need to define a minimum T level to be considered advantaged enough to be in the men's.

Viewing it this way reveals how ridiculous the concept is.

I'm opposed to using T levels and just pointing out how people's thinking leads them to define male as the baseline.