If Cotton meant that in the 18c the USA only came together as a nation by agreeing slavery would be legal, he's 100% correct. The slave states would never have joined the union had slavery been outlawed.
I'm 90% sure that's what he meant but who knows.
right wingers being fed a constant diet of anarchy and violence.
I"ll say it again - Dems need to stop the violence if they want to keep their large polling leads.
Main headlines on foxnews.com
Bag with ammo, Molotov cocktails found near Portland protests on 60th day of unrest
DHS Secretary Wolf says Portland protests different from 'normal criminal activity'American protests: Demonstrations, violent riots expected to continue throughout the countryGohmert: Democrats' 'strategy' is to 'keep America in turmoil' to make it easier to dump TrumpPortland rioters use 'cover of crowd' to commit crimes, launch fireworks at officers
Fat hurts wrote:
Racket wrote:
I don't see anything wrong with the statement Cotton made but I'm open to persuasion if there's qualified historians lurking to set the record straight. Unifying the nation at the Constitutional Convention of 1787 was the highest priority and most of the anti-slavery Founding Fathers knew they would never get the South on board with full blown abolition in the Constitution even though they knew slavery was contradictory to the main tenants of the articles themselves (life, liberty, pursuit of happiness and property and all that). Most of them also understood it would almost certainly lead to massive conflict and no one had the appetite for that. This was pretty much in line with what John Adams thought as well. Benjamin Franklin and John Jay both sought to end slavery legally and gradually afterwards.
This topic comes up in the spotlight about every 5 years now since probably 1950 or so.
So do you agree with Tom Cotton that slavery was a necessary evil?
I don’t know about anyone here, but clearly Tom Cotton (and what a name) agrees it was a necessary evil given the context and way he said it, even if he’s now pretending that he was just quoting the statement. Gimme a fkn break and just own it.
Smorbun wrote:
Racket wrote:
Yikes.
Does that mean you disagree? If you do, you are wrong.
Good luck with that
The statement “slavery was a necessary evil” sounds like it was necessary to kidnap people from Africa and make them work in the fields against their will in order to make the country prosperous.
Was that really necessary?
Your statement that it was necessary to allow it to continue to form an expansive Union is much different than saying it was necessary to have slavery in the first place.
Many original settlers and founders of America were some pretty immoral people.
That immorality continues in many Americans today.
Monkeys typing wrote:
Racket wrote:
Trump was elected to disrupt the establishment so I don't think losing those endorsements will be particularly significant. Seems like polarization is only getting worse unfortunately so really it'll come down to Democrat turnout in my opinion.
That's part of his appeal, but I don't think his 2016 voter base is as homogeneous as that. There really are more than a few establishment Republicans that are tired of the drama and general incompetence.
I don't deny the diversity of the party in that regard, so to speak, but rather their ability to pull the lever for anyone that doesn't have an "R" next to their name especially as it becomes more and more "us versus them."
L L wrote:
The statement “slavery was a necessary evil” sounds like it was necessary to kidnap people from Africa and make them work in the fields against their will in order to make the country prosperous.
Was that really necessary?
Your statement that it was necessary to allow it to continue to form an expansive Union is much different than saying it was necessary to have slavery in the first place.
Many original settlers and founders of America were some pretty immoral people.
That immorality continues in many Americans today.
I haven't seen the movie since like middle school, but I believe the phrase "necessary evil" is what Ben Franklin uses shortly before John Adams and Edward Rutledge break out in dramatic song in the film adaptation of 1776
L L wrote:
The statement “slavery was a necessary evil” sounds like it was necessary to kidnap people from Africa and make them work in the fields against their will in order to make the country prosperous.
Was that really necessary?
Your statement that it was necessary to allow it to continue to form an expansive Union is much different than saying it was necessary to have slavery in the first place.
Many original settlers and founders of America were some pretty immoral people.
That immorality continues in many Americans today.
here's the full quote. Seems very clear to me that he meant putting the nation together in the 18c, since he mentions the founding fathers immediately before he says slavery was a 'necessary evil.' It's a well constructed paragraph that to me can mean only one thing: The founders understood slavery to be a necessary evil if the 13 colonies were to form one nation and not two. But the nation's path was toward abolition.'
This is standard US history, right down the middle of the fairway.
Cotton:
"We have to study the history of slavery and its role and impact on the development of our country because otherwise we can’t understand our country. As the Founding Fathers said, it was the necessary evil upon which the union was built, but the union was built in a way, as Lincoln said, to put slavery on the course to its ultimate extinction."
agip wrote:
right wingers being fed a constant diet of anarchy and violence.
I"ll say it again - Dems need to stop the violence if they want to keep their large polling leads.
Main headlines on foxnews.com
Bag with ammo, Molotov cocktails found near Portland protests on 60th day of unrest
DHS Secretary Wolf says Portland protests different from 'normal criminal activity'American protests: Demonstrations, violent riots expected to continue throughout the countryGohmert: Democrats' 'strategy' is to 'keep America in turmoil' to make it easier to dump TrumpPortland rioters use 'cover of crowd' to commit crimes, launch fireworks at officers
People still watching FOX were always going to be all in. Plus, even if there isn't much happening in the streets they'd make it up. Nothing to see here.
agip wrote:
L L wrote:
The statement “slavery was a necessary evil” sounds like it was necessary to kidnap people from Africa and make them work in the fields against their will in order to make the country prosperous.
Was that really necessary?
Your statement that it was necessary to allow it to continue to form an expansive Union is much different than saying it was necessary to have slavery in the first place.
Many original settlers and founders of America were some pretty immoral people.
That immorality continues in many Americans today.
here's the full quote. Seems very clear to me that he meant putting the nation together in the 18c, since he mentions the founding fathers immediately before he says slavery was a 'necessary evil.' It's a well constructed paragraph that to me can mean only one thing: The founders understood slavery to be a necessary evil if the 13 colonies were to form one nation and not two. But the nation's path was toward abolition.'
This is standard US history, right down the middle of the fairway.
Cotton:
"We have to study the history of slavery and its role and impact on the development of our country because otherwise we can’t understand our country. As the Founding Fathers said, it was the necessary evil upon which the union was built, but the union was built in a way, as Lincoln said, to put slavery on the course to its ultimate extinction."
Given the context of that discussion and the fact that he's working to prevent the 1619 project, and that he literally thinks he's saving US history. Using the word "As" means he agrees with it, and I have no doubt he does. That isn't the bigger issue IMO, as bad as that is. The real problem here is that he was ok making the statement to the local Arkansas paper, but on the national stage he backtracks. This is just good ol' fashioned signaling. Btw - why do any of these Cotton-types have an issue with openly discussing that we have made huge progress but still have systemic racism? They are unable to do it, and you know it's because of votes and clearly for many it's their own conviction as well.
Trollminator wrote:
agip wrote:
here's the full quote. Seems very clear to me that he meant putting the nation together in the 18c, since he mentions the founding fathers immediately before he says slavery was a 'necessary evil.' It's a well constructed paragraph that to me can mean only one thing: The founders understood slavery to be a necessary evil if the 13 colonies were to form one nation and not two. But the nation's path was toward abolition.'
This is standard US history, right down the middle of the fairway.
Cotton:
"We have to study the history of slavery and its role and impact on the development of our country because otherwise we can’t understand our country. As the Founding Fathers said, it was the necessary evil upon which the union was built, but the union was built in a way, as Lincoln said, to put slavery on the course to its ultimate extinction."
Given the context of that discussion and the fact that he's working to prevent the 1619 project, and that he literally thinks he's saving US history. Using the word "As" means he agrees with it, and I have no doubt he does. That isn't the bigger issue IMO, as bad as that is. The real problem here is that he was ok making the statement to the local Arkansas paper, but on the national stage he backtracks. This is just good ol' fashioned signaling. Btw - why do any of these Cotton-types have an issue with openly discussing that we have made huge progress but still have systemic racism? They are unable to do it, and you know it's because of votes and clearly for many it's their own conviction as well.
I hear you, but as orwell said, one of the hardest things to do is see the truth when it's right in front of you.
It is always critically important to recognize truth, wherever it comes from. That's our duty as citizens in a democracy. If we start defining truth by who says it, we are doomed.
Cotton said a truth and we should all recognize it as a truth.
As for signalling well ok fine sure he was signalling.
agip wrote:
here's the full quote. Seems very clear to me that he meant putting the nation together in the 18c, since he mentions the founding fathers immediately before he says slavery was a 'necessary evil.' It's a well constructed paragraph that to me can mean only one thing: The founders understood slavery to be a necessary evil if the 13 colonies were to form one nation and not two. But the nation's path was toward abolition.'
This is standard US history, right down the middle of the fairway.
Cotton:
"We have to study the history of slavery and its role and impact on the development of our country because otherwise we can’t understand our country. As the Founding Fathers said, it was the necessary evil upon which the union was built, but the union was built in a way, as Lincoln said, to put slavery on the course to its ultimate extinction."
Cotton was not stating the facts of US History. Cotton was agreeing with the idea that slavery was a necessary evil. That's clearly what he said and clearly what he meant.
The facts of history are different from the interpretation of history.
Do you agree with Cotton's interpretation that slavery was a necessary evil?
Fat hurts wrote:
agip wrote:
here's the full quote. Seems very clear to me that he meant putting the nation together in the 18c, since he mentions the founding fathers immediately before he says slavery was a 'necessary evil.' It's a well constructed paragraph that to me can mean only one thing: The founders understood slavery to be a necessary evil if the 13 colonies were to form one nation and not two. But the nation's path was toward abolition.'
This is standard US history, right down the middle of the fairway.
Cotton:
"We have to study the history of slavery and its role and impact on the development of our country because otherwise we can’t understand our country. As the Founding Fathers said, it was the necessary evil upon which the union was built, but the union was built in a way, as Lincoln said, to put slavery on the course to its ultimate extinction."
Cotton was not stating the facts of US History. Cotton was agreeing with the idea that slavery was a necessary evil. That's clearly what he said and clearly what he meant.
The facts of history are different from the interpretation of history.
Do you agree with Cotton's interpretation that slavery was a necessary evil?
cotton was saying, paraphrased: "The founding fathers believed that legalizing slavery in the new nation was a necessary evil in order to get the Southern states to join the Union. Furthermore, the founders felt slavery would fade away over time.'
I don't have any problem with that statement other than I'd add 'some' founding fathers viewed slavery as fine and good and not evil at all.
Do you have any problem with that paraphrase? If so, what is your disagreement?
What do you mean he said a truth and we should recognize it as a truth?
Quoting a founding father?
What if I said:
As Hitler said, Jews are bad.
That’s a truth. He said that.
But it wouldn’t make it ok for me to say that.
agip wrote:
here's the full quote. Seems very clear to me that he meant putting the nation together in the 18c, since he mentions the founding fathers immediately before he says slavery was a 'necessary evil.' It's a well constructed paragraph that to me can mean only one thing: The founders understood slavery to be a necessary evil if the 13 colonies were to form one nation and not two. But the nation's path was toward abolition.'
This is standard US history, right down the middle of the fairway.
Cotton:
"We have to study the history of slavery and its role and impact on the development of our country because otherwise we can’t understand our country. As the Founding Fathers said, it was the necessary evil upon which the union was built, but the union was built in a way, as Lincoln said, to put slavery on the course to its ultimate extinction."
The context is that Cotton has introduced legislation that cuts some funding to schools that use materials from the "1619 Project" which contends that slavery was a bigger factor in the revolution than is generally taught in schools. Their contention is that Great Britain was significantly moving away from slavery and that this was a significant factor in southern colonies joining the revolution. As I understand it, there are legitimate historians who feel the "1619 Project" over states the significance of this factor, so Cotton's position isn't entirely without merit.
I don't know how unusual it is to introduce legislation to restrict the use of this sort of material in public schools. Teaching alternatives to evolution by natural selection in schools is an obvious example.
agip wrote:
Fat hurts wrote:
Cotton was not stating the facts of US History. Cotton was agreeing with the idea that slavery was a necessary evil. That's clearly what he said and clearly what he meant.
The facts of history are different from the interpretation of history.
Do you agree with Cotton's interpretation that slavery was a necessary evil?
cotton was saying, paraphrased: "The founding fathers believed that legalizing slavery in the new nation was a necessary evil in order to get the Southern states to join the Union. Furthermore, the founders felt slavery would fade away over time.'
I don't have any problem with that statement other than I'd add 'some' founding fathers viewed slavery as fine and good and not evil at all.
Do you have any problem with that paraphrase? If so, what is your disagreement?
I suppose you are asking something else...Cotton seems to be saying that he thinks slavery was a price worth paying in order to found the 13-colony USA. So...are you asking if I think the USA should not have been founded as 13 colonies but rather just 7 colonies (the Northern colonies only)? That's a very hard question and one of those counterfactuals that play in theoretical land. 'Would I shoot baby hitler' sort of questions. I mean what would the Southern colonies have done with their nation? It's too much to argue about.
agip wrote:
Fat hurts wrote:
Cotton was not stating the facts of US History. Cotton was agreeing with the idea that slavery was a necessary evil. That's clearly what he said and clearly what he meant.
The facts of history are different from the interpretation of history.
Do you agree with Cotton's interpretation that slavery was a necessary evil?
cotton was saying, paraphrased: "The founding fathers believed that legalizing slavery in the new nation was a necessary evil in order to get the Southern states to join the Union. Furthermore, the founders felt slavery would fade away over time.'
I don't have any problem with that statement other than I'd add 'some' founding fathers viewed slavery as fine and good and not evil at all.
Do you have any problem with that paraphrase? If so, what is your disagreement?
We don't need to paraphrase. We have the actual quote and it is already quite succinct.
Again, can you answer the question, "Do you agree with Cotton's interpretation that slavery was a necessary evil?"
L L wrote:
What do you mean he said a truth and we should recognize it as a truth?
Quoting a founding father?
What if I said:
As Hitler said, Jews are bad.
That’s a truth. He said that.
But it wouldn’t make it ok for me to say that.
but...it's completely true that the 13 colonies would not have united into one nation if slavery were outlawed. It's a bad analogy. Jews aren't bad. But the 13-colony USA definitely would not have been founded with illegal slavery.
Fat hurts wrote:
agip wrote:
cotton was saying, paraphrased: "The founding fathers believed that legalizing slavery in the new nation was a necessary evil in order to get the Southern states to join the Union. Furthermore, the founders felt slavery would fade away over time.'
I don't have any problem with that statement other than I'd add 'some' founding fathers viewed slavery as fine and good and not evil at all.
Do you have any problem with that paraphrase? If so, what is your disagreement?
We don't need to paraphrase. We have the actual quote and it is already quite succinct.
Again, can you answer the question, "Do you agree with Cotton's interpretation that slavery was a necessary evil?"
Are you asking if I think the USA should not have been founded as 13 colonies but rather just 7 colonies (the Northern colonies only)? That's a very hard question and one of those counterfactuals that play in theoretical land. 'Would I shoot baby hitler' sort of questions. I mean what would the Southern colonies have done with their nation? It's too much to argue about.
agip wrote:
I mean what would the Southern colonies have done with their nation? It's too much to argue about.
No. It's exactly the thing we should argue about. This is exactly why history is important.
Cotton was saying this while discussing history textbooks. He was saying that we should teach children that slavery was a necessary evil. Do you agree with that?