Sirpoc's long runs have been gradually increasing. Was hitting around 23K but since the masters 5K victory he's been nudging up through 25, 26, and 27 yesterday. Time-wise, now at 2 hours. We either have another marathon on the cards, or he's just adding load. If he goes for 28 or 2:05 next Sunday it'll be clearer, and if we see 3x5K in the coming weeks, it's a dead cert.
Sirpoc's long runs have been gradually increasing. Was hitting around 23K but since the masters 5K victory he's been nudging up through 25, 26, and 27 yesterday. Time-wise, now at 2 hours. We either have another marathon on the cards, or he's just adding load. If he goes for 28 or 2:05 next Sunday it'll be clearer, and if we see 3x5K in the coming weeks, it's a dead cert.
I don’t use Strava but assumed he would be doing a spring marathon. Not sure if it was something I heard him say on a podcast or somewhere else, but I got the impression it was possible. Obviously we all want him to go Sub-2:20 but following a similar build to his last marathon and getting a PB would be a huge success (for him and this method).
Maybe someone will ask on his Strava runs and he’ll respond.
Why model training with high injury risk for hobby joggers when they are likely aerobically underdeveloped and can safely build their aerobic system and improve their performance at the same time? They don't need sharpening. They don't need turnover. They don't need "potent load". They just need a solid aerobic base. Only after that's developed does it makes sense to add harder work.
I think this is the key really. I think traditionally people think of ‘building a base’ along the lines of 4-6 weeks of easy running, before starting a training plan for their event. But what we see here is that building the base takes months/years for many hobby joggers.
Sirpoc's long runs have been gradually increasing. Was hitting around 23K but since the masters 5K victory he's been nudging up through 25, 26, and 27 yesterday. Time-wise, now at 2 hours. We either have another marathon on the cards, or he's just adding load. If he goes for 28 or 2:05 next Sunday it'll be clearer, and if we see 3x5K in the coming weeks, it's a dead cert.
Sirpoc was talking about Seville in February, in that YouTube with FODRunner, but I wasn’t clear if he actually had a place.
Maybe Sirpoc should write a "middle distance" short block,like he did with the marathon block.
Experimenting with a sprinkle of 200-400m or some kind of rithm change parkrun (?) aiming to use all that is neccesary for a good 1500-3000m.
Bakken proposed on strava the short sharpening block,always watching to not bite into good balance. So just a few workouts faster then LT,and always cutting back if one feel it as overreaching. Of course he precisely watched it with lactate meter,so for us mortals it is not so simple.
Maybe Sipoc should see what changed Steve back then when he somehow achieved the sprint finish at the end.
(see YT One of the most courageous things you will ever see on a running track ! Steve Jones 10,000m)
There are two or more ways to think about adaptation of the system with a clear focus on 1500m. One would be the block mentioned above. This should work for many, especially those who are not challenged in terms of leg speed.
The other approach would be to modify the training and do it year round. Maybe "shift left" the intervals lengths to something like 400s/1000s/2000s instead of the 1000s/2000s/3000s. Would be interesting to mess around with different ways of doing the 400s also, including something like 10x400 on 2-3min (easy lap) and find out where the lactate ends up.
Someone commented on that activity about Seville marathon and he liked it, so I assume he's going for that in February
It's funny how cryptic he is but I suppose he has to be if he doesn't want 500 of us weirdos turning up at the same race in Chinese shoes and vintage football tops, scarfing down Snickers bars while asking him if the 2K reps or the 1600's would work better to PB at a local 8.4K trail race.
The misconception so many makes here according to how I look upon it with maxVO2 is that you think it can only be used with success if used as just sharpening. It can also be used as. ' potent load' or ' the never ending story' frequently ( weekly) year around , but you got to keep the reps relatively short 200- 600m your body can take it without raised injury or overdoing risk .If we look at world topclass runners as Jakob Ingebrigtsen and my countryman Andreas Almgren they keep up this maxVO2 work year round by. ' simulate ' VO2 workouts during their building season with 20 x 200m hillreps.What hobbyjoggers often forget is that they can 'copy' this on much less mileage ( half or less) than these world top runners and still reach their absolute highest possible capacity. I assure you the extra run per day most of the elite do is not the main explanation why they run so fast. And as I always ' preach' there are many, many world top runners on amazingly low volume in history that back up what I say. Happy new year to you all and good luck 2026! 🖐🧙♂️🖐
Jan, there is. Big misconception here from you. One which explains why you report your athletes tell you "feels easy" or it was a "cruise" when they do the 400 repeats in particular.
Listen carefully you might learn something. Your vO2 reps, aren't really vO2 reps. Especially your 400s. You have them bring down their HR to 130 or whatever it is (your special magic number) before they go again. Biomechanically, they are running fast, but, they are probably phisiologicalally closer to sub threshold reps. There's very, very little time vO2 max is being reached.
What you are mostly doing (besides the hill reps, which nobody is disagreeing has a place if you value sharpening or specificity later in an athletes development) is just giving your runners two subthreshold workouts a week, one that is short reps, 400s, and the classic threshold session and then a day off. So it's no wonder, nobody massively improves under you. As I think most people agree here, the third workout a week is key. Or at least a large part of it.
This also explains some of the posts a few pages back where you couldn't seem to wrap your head around that you could run faster than VDOT threshold pace and be subthreshold. Which, was really strange but actually probably exposed you somewhat as not only an idiot, but that your training, at heart, is Subthreshold lite and you don't even realise it, because despite being a good runner in yoir past, you have absolutely no idea avout what is going on physiologically.
Sirpoc's long runs have been gradually increasing. Was hitting around 23K but since the masters 5K victory he's been nudging up through 25, 26, and 27 yesterday. Time-wise, now at 2 hours. We either have another marathon on the cards, or he's just adding load. If he goes for 28 or 2:05 next Sunday it'll be clearer, and if we see 3x5K in the coming weeks, it's a dead cert.
What also strikes me with looking at the data he openly shares, is just how flat that HR plot is even over 2 hours. Each 1km lap that shows on Strava, is almost identical in terms of average HR, aside from the usual lower for the first 10-15 mins. It really is almost metronomic and also shows you when easy running is really truly easy the plot will stay flat and you are really limiting the fatigue you'll generate whilst being able to do the whole week again starting the next day without drama.
I early on using this method, tipped the balance colder and wiser described, by doing too much on these long runs. I was a bit obsessed with having to add more intensity in the long run. In the end, I stopped that after 3 weeks and the marathon build had just all easy long runs for the next 3 months and I still ran a huge PB. I think for me that was the point I started rethinking everything I had engrained into me by running lore.
Brilliantly worded reply and just all around excellent posts from everyone on page 486, probably amongst the best so far. Thanks again to James and co for continuing to check the thread and chime in every now and then!
I have to say I didn't expect to have my views challenged and changed this much a hundred pages back. Genuinely want to apologize for how dismissive I was coming in though. Looking forward to seeing how things play out as we approach the big 500 going into 2026!
You know what, this is me. My views have changed.
My journey was this:
Someone said to me have you seen the Norwegian Singles Method?. Response: there's no such thing and that sounds silly. (I like how the book deals with it).
Saw the thread early: dismissed it.
Saw about two years later the same guy originally posting just ran a debut 2:24 marathon off an adaption of it: Went back to the start, still not sure if made sense.
Then had to challenge some of my own beliefs. But why do I need what I think I need? The answer comes down to a coach now in his 60s and probably far behind the curve, told me I needed it.
Like your handle, I actually enjoy middle distance. But here is the thing. My mile has gotten faster without anything my gut instincts tell me I need. Now I have a huge, for me, regional mile race coming up in April, where I probably will sprinkle in some sharpening, because I care about that one race and even if it gets me a quarter second, it'll be worth it for that race. But outside of that, I'm just going full vanilla until I stop improving.
I think once I read the book, it will be hard for me to shift my views on this now, until ultimately someone comes up with a better laid out argument for a semi-quick hobby jogger like me. The book was that convincing to me.
I really also appreciate how sirpoc himself is incredibly honest. This might not work. It might not be for you. It's not for elites. But here are the tools for you to take control of your own training, but there are no miracles. It's refreshing really.
I think this is the key really. I think traditionally people think of ‘building a base’ along the lines of 4-6 weeks of easy running, before starting a training plan for their event. But what we see here is that building the base takes months/years for many hobby joggers.
This is it. My coach genuinely would have me build a 6 week base and then I would be ready for the intensity. The more I think about it the more frustrated I am that I just accepted this. Coaches I think need to justify themselves to athletes in the short term. Especially at hobby level. The problem with that is they focus on really short sighted gains, at the detriment of the long term.
I mean imagine saying to an elite athlete, "OK Olympics in 12 weeks, let's gooooo". No they build up to it incredibly slowly, there is an incredible amount of what we would recognise training like this in it.
Someone commented on that activity about Seville marathon and he liked it, so I assume he's going for that in February
It's funny how cryptic he is but I suppose he has to be if he doesn't want 500 of us weirdos turning up at the same race in Chinese shoes and vintage football tops, scarfing down Snickers bars while asking him if the 2K reps or the 1600's would work better to PB at a local 8.4K trail race.
Agree with all of this, although he only appears cryptic compared with YouTubers who insist on announcing their plans through a dozen videos and matching cringey thumbnails. Sirpoc is old school, wants to do the thing, prepares to do the thing, doesn’t care is anyone knows about the thing, does the thing.
Side note: I would totally subscribe to a “Sirpoc Road To” series…even if the first 6 episodes were 30 seconds long with him saying “I did the same as last week”.
16:xx hobbyjogger here improving faster under NSA than I ever have with other training approaches. Was stuck at 17:30 for 6 months using Pfitz last year. Haven't done a single stride faster than 5k pace since starting (or 10k pace in training).
Probably another liar,but also think what might happen if you had a coach like JS? 🤔
Maybe you are running with one hand tie behind back.....
I imagine it would be like running with both hands tied behind my back...
If Sirpoc is reading this, I remember you mentioned the aspect of load playing a role in fitness.
In intervals.icu, I noticed that in order for me to improve fitness during Sub-T sessions, I need to achieve a load between 68-72. Anything lower doesn't help improve and I imagine anything above would overcook me.
As I think most people agree here, the third workout a week is key. Or at least a large part of it.
Why should the third workout in the 7-days cycle be "key"? It's just a way to get to x training load. If two identical twins runners with same baseline fitness train with roughly the same weekly load, but one does 3 sub-threshold (3x30' at pace) sessions per week while the other does only 2 (2x40' at pace) but runs 20' longer in the weekly long run, why should the 3x subT guy improve more? The advantage for the 3x schedule is that you can scale it up more easily without having to hit very demanding sessions, but I think the core of the method here is sustainable long term load increase
why would it dilute ALL advantages? When I hear maximalist statements like this I need to hear some basis for them otherwise it sounds a bit like people a little too committed to defending their chosen philosophy. Not trying to be snarky either, you might indeed be right.
I've had my best success in the past mixing and matching from various programs based on how athletes respond and recovery. The key is understanding the total workload tax, recovery response etc of each athlete to various methods.
If this was truly the cutting edge then every pro would be doing it or losing , but that doesn't seem to be the case.
I think there are definitely ways to benefit from advancements in training philosophy and incorporate them to modify ones approach w/o replacing an entire approach that has worked. I'm not coming to this because I haven't had success with other approaches. I'm trying to use new understandings to improve approaches that are already working.
I'm not sure why there seems to be an insistence on all or nothing approach. It's highly unlikely that NSM is the end of the evolution of training theory. It's going to be replaced eventually with something that works better. And that will probably require using what is good about the Norwegian method in conjunction with something else. Advancement takes experimentation.
If this thread is dedicated to only adopting NSM w/o question, I apologize. Please direct me to the one where it is allowed to be discussed.
As you say you are in a cult thread. If you deviates from prevailing belief one is not welcomed here. All the world record holders ( except some few ) in running distance in history , even at the Masters section , used some training method not looked like the NSM.