50+ Masters Training and Racing Open Forum

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

mo’pac,

Thanks. Curious to the origin of the reference to Australia as Oz.

Igy

Our Aussie (Ozzie) accent mate. "Oztralya" lol.

Coach X wrote:

mo'pak wrote:

I don't feel knowledgeable enough to critique someone's training plan.

Bingo.

I, too, am a longtime coach, but I would never offer a training plan for someone without first getting a detailed history. Then, and only then, would it be sensible to have a goal setting session and eventually produce a training plan.

We are all an experiment of one. There is no one size-fits-all plan.

Common sense.

mo'pak wrote:

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

mo’pac,

Thanks. Curious to the origin of the reference to Australia as Oz.

Igy

Our Aussie (Ozzie) accent mate. "Oztralya" lol.

OK, gotcha.

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

Some thoughts from a long time coach and someone that has run and raced since 1965.

I would tend to agree with with mo’pac but as one of the other posters said we are all so different especially as we age. That said, something I see in training schedules that I believe is less than optimal is a level of sameness. Also, volume is important, especially if you are racing longer distances, but there are ways to acquire with less physical stress. Sure if one can train at the level of a 50 year old at 60, you should. On the other hand if one continues to face set-backs, that alone becomes an inhibitor, then modifications should be made. The better athlete in the end is the one that trains a variety of modalities.

Some thoughts from an injury-prone old stiff (late 50s) that has run & raced since 1985 (I didn't distance run in HS but did sprints and played a couple years of college football).

I would agree that we are all different as we age which begs the question as to why? There must be major genetic components at play here as to why some older runners (>55) can train at a very high volume (>60 mpw) with significant amounts of speedwork & year-round racing but yet maintain a very low injury rate. Conversely, there are runners who struggle with low mileage, limited speedwork & racing buy yet have a significant injury history requiring downtime, copious amounts of rehab & cross training virtually year-round.

In the masters running club that I belong to we have a few anti-aging specimens who run very fast 5k through HM times while maintaining a high mileage base year-round with little or no lnjuries. Granted these guys are built very thin & lean (i.e.," Whitlock" body types) but surprisingly spend no time with strength training or cross training. It's just pounding out the mileage, hard speedwork & monthly racing year after year. Similarly, I've also noticed here on this forum some runners with very fast times and some insane weekly training blocks. And there's some runners here with chronic injuries that makes me feel more at home. Lol.

Though not built for running and with less than ideal biomechanics, I struggle to run (i.e., "shuffle step") a pathetic ~15 mpw with very limited speedwork. My chronic injury list is too long to list but a bad wheel is the biggest obstacle right now (OA/rupture PTT of the ankle). Strength training, cross training, etc. has little effect on running biomechanics for this injury-prone flatfoot. Lol.

But to my original point; what is perplexing is how some aging runners seem to defy age-related degenerative changes in the musculoskeletal system and changes in biomechanics (i.e., decreased stride length, mechanical reductions, GRFs). I would imagine it would be exceptional genetics and outliers. This article in the Times talks about age-related biomechanical changes particularly reductions at the ankle & lower extremities. An interesting study also compares the biomechanical changes with aging runners not observed with younger runners.

Stiff,

I will check out the two articles that you posted. I had a chain of problems late 50s andy early 60s. The source of the problem was an anterior pelvic tilt right side. Causing a chain of problems from hip, achilles and plantar. Much of the solution came into digging into the issue myself. The professionals got into some of the heart of the problem but never put the puzzle together.

Igy

Here is what I consider a better regurgitation / summarization of the ankle power stride length research:

https://www.runnersworld.com/speed/stay-fast-as-you-age

.....

"While the paper calls attention to the ankle joint, measuring many variables of ankle force and power production, DeVita acknowledges that it is actually the calf muscles—particularly the soleus and gastrocnemius muscles—that produce these forces. "

Main point being : Powerful calves both soleus and gastroc are important to maintain your power which is really how fast you can run. Weight reduces power just saying...

HILLs HILLs HILLs also run fast stuff frequently or do like Ed and just fatigue your slow twitch fibers so the faster fibers get activated even though you are going slow. I tried this with hiking 3 hours a day for a year. Problem was 3 hours a day of hiking is just not enough to fatigue anything too easy also too far away from running but here is a guy who be doing somthing of interest:

Same ideas on Pitching and power really applies to running and power.

http://pitchmechanics101.com/the-9-factors-that-strongly-influence-pitching-velocity/

Running slower than walking been doing some of this kinda makes sense:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9L2b2khySLE

Slow Jogging Dude ran a 2:38 at 50+ just saying

http://naturalrunningcenter.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/tanaka-2.jpg

Warning do not click on the slow jogging dude photo at least in chrome I had to ctl alt del to task mgr and kill chrome

This one explains slow jogging I just might transition my hiking to slow jogging will world domination be mine? he he

http://www.championseverywhere.com/niko-niko-pace-gentle-path-success/

Charlie wrote:

Slow Jogging Dude ran a 2:38 at 50+ just saying

http://naturalrunningcenter.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/tanaka-2.jpg

C'mon man...this guy looks like a munchkin; what is he 5-3 & 115 lbs or something? That lady there dwarfs him. I'v probably got 50 lbs on him (5-7/165). Given his very impressive marathon time, though, I'll call him a "diminutive dynasty." ?

5 weeks into form change calfs are good found an article on form that has some first time stuff on form. Go Pro on the treadmill here I come! Stuff like big toe bend on toe off stiff ankles knees not bent enough on landing lots of good stuff!

https://www.outsideonline.com/2293286/four-ways-fix-your-running-stride

Wonder if it is worth a trip to BC?

http://www.fortiussport.com/Services/Pages/Biomechanics.aspx

Form drills? Do people still do these in the 21st century?

*Week 355*

Greetings, 50+ers, on this Easter morn! Quite a bit of useful information posted from this past week. Much more than I can take in right now given this hectic semester, but thanks to all that are sharing their knowledge, experience, and articles that have piqued their interest.

For my week, I added a little mileage over last week, but not as much as I'd hoped to. Managed 23.3 miles on 5 days with a couple of efforts thrown in for good measure. Log reads as such:

Sun: 7.0 Mostly Easy (8:09/mi)

Mon: Off

Tue: 5.0 Fartlek (7:42/mi avg pace) w/5x2:00 hard (~6:20/mi)

Wed: Off

Thu: 3.0 Easy-hard (7:31) w/0.7

I stuck to 35 minutes this week out of caution and that fact that I am still in the early phases of getting fit. My legs are still sore and my paces are naturally getting faster. My weight continues to gradually drop as I am now at 154, down 13 pounds since Thanksgiving. Goal is 150.

Tu: 35 min medium, soft urban trail near my home

Thr: 35 min medium, steep rocky trail

Sa: 35 min very hard, very steep, very rocky trail

Su: 35 min easy, flat soft trail

Thanks for the links Charlie. I am always interested to check out the various methods and approaches to training. I know I need every idea available to add to my list of things I do to keep running. Most of my running peers from 40+ years ago don’t run anymore. I ran 3rd and 4th on my very good HS team but I am the only one still running. In chatting with them I’ve found they have not really tried many different things to keep running. They seem to suffer from a lack of ideas.

Just for fun I jotted down a list of things I have tried since I entered master’s running at the age of 47. I’ll bet folks here have similarly long lists of tricks in their little black bags to keep running. So, beg pardon for the tediousness of this list, but here it is:

1) Run 4 days a week, M, W, F, off, 2) Run 5 days a week, Th and Fri off, 3) Run 5 days a week, Tu and Th off, 4) Run every day, streak up to 422 days, 5) Run every other day, 6) Stretch legs, 7) Don’t stretch legs, 8) Hills on Tu, Speed on Sat, and long on Sun, 9) Speed on Sat, 10) Hills on Sat, 11) Every run moderately hard, gradual pace increase, 12) Run with group, 13) Run alone, 14) Treadmill only, 15) Road only, 16) Trails only, 17) Trails and road mix, 18) Wear orthotics, 19) Don’t wear orthotics, 20) Take ibuprofen, 21) Avoid ibuprofen, 22) Take aspirin, 23) Avoid aspirin, 24) Take statin, 25) Avoid statin, 26) Wear Strasburg sock, 27) Wear dorsal splint, 28) Wear hard cast, 29) Rotate shoes, 30) Stick with same shoe, 31) Ice, 32) Heat, 33) Weird Chinese balms, 34) Arnica gel, 35) Epson salt, 36) Roll foot with ice, 37) Roll foot with golf ball, 38) Massage, 39) ART Chiropractic, 40) Standard Chiropractic, 41) Balance on one foot while brushing teeth, 42) Use wobble board, 43) Ride skateboard, 44) Take glucosamine/msm/chondroitin, 45) Free weights, 46) Run backwards, 47) Fitness gym, 48) Squats, 49) Toe scrunches, 50) Heel drops, 51) Heel ups, 52) Go barefoot, 53) Never go barefoot, 54) Run by minutes, 55) Run by miles, 56) Intermittent fasting, 57) Cut out sugar, 58) Cut out caffeine, 59) Cut out alcohol, 60) Drink red wine, 61) Drink beer, 62) Shorten stride, 63) Walk, 64) Hike, 65) Use Garmin, 66) No watch, 67) Use HRM, 68) Use fitbit, 69) Pushups and crunches, 70) Focus on distance per week, 71) Focus on pace per week, 72) 48 hour fasting, 73) Elliptical alone, 74) Elliptical mixed with running, 75) Run steps, 76) Use races as speedwork, 77) Increase mileage 1 minute per day, 78) Increase mileage by 10% per week, 79) Decrease mileage by 20% when tired/injured, 80) Toe stretches for PF, 81) Wear running shoes at work, 82) Wear dress shoes at work, 83) Tennis, 84) Run super slow, 85) Swim, 86) Jog runs and kill workouts on track (rlb style), and finally, 87) Lose weight!

Have a good week folks.

Happy Easter. This past week continued the mileage build. Almost time to consider some faster-paced work. I put on 20 pounds during my 3-month layoff (no running, no cross-training). I have lost about 9 pounds, so 11 to go. Rtype, I got a kick out of your list ... I admit to having tried a few of those things, myself!

M58 -- 5'11" 168 lbs

Open PRs (1982) -- 16:04 5K, 2:40:30 marathon

Masters PRs (2003) -- 17:10 5K, 2:56:03 marathon

Most recent (2017) -- 18:58 5K, 3:07:23 marathon

Goal -- Defend M55-59 title in August 15K

Training status -- Injury rehab, mileage build

March 26 - April 1, 2018

Mon -- 10.0 miles @ 9:00/mi

Tue -- 10.2 miles @ 9:06/mi

Wed -- 2 x 20 mins elliptical

Thu -- 16.9 miles @ 8:39/mi

Fri -- 12.0 miles @ 8:57/mi

Sat -- 4.0 miles @ 8:55/mi

Sun -- off

WEEK TOTAL: 53.1 MILES

It's been twelve weeks since I started running again. Runs so far have been mostly very slow and easy. Still some knee and achilles issues, but I continue to see progress with the work on the weight machines (and a little ibuprofen). Here is how the mileage build hss gone so far:

Week total - Longest run

6 - 3.0

8 - 4.0

21 - 6.0

24 - 6.9

28 - 7.7

30 - 8.0

30 - 12.0

41 - 13.5

12 - 6.9

43 - 12.

51 - 16.6

53 - 16.9

Have a good week everyone!

-Allen

RType sounds like you are on a roll keep it going and your post got me to thinking about all the stuff I have tried over the years thanks.

Well 17 months into this come back I am still excited about running so that is pretty good. Form that seems to be a fundemental part of running for injury prevention/rehab as well as running fast. Another piece of the puzzle. Here is my recall order:

barefoot strong sensitive feet cant be beat

hills both up and down eccentric strength uneven terrain scramble

cross training specific to running walking standup biking maybe add slow running

diet no refined carbs junk food get your weight low low low but healthy age is not an excuse to get FAT

time restricted eating/intermittent fasting fantastic sleep well feel great works for me

rehab message stretching exercising

do not over do it a big issue for me when I feel good I just want to keep hammering away

right shoes

joint stuff glucosamine and bone broth

New ones:

Form gotta be something to this

Super slow running as cross training

What have I tossed out...

orthotics

motion control shoes

high mileage

cave man diet

compression sleeves for lower legs

duct tape for feet hey it seemed to work for pf

chiroprator scary stuff

allergies just live with some and live away from most

performance anxiety a big one as I was always pretty demanding on myself this could be a big topic I used to do all or nothing set a goal and either achieve it or not but always with the idea that once done I would quit running. This was because the goals were too demanding and took the joy out of running which would make me want to quit as life already has too many demands. Slowly along with getting older and slower I have learned to just enjoy the run.

ok that is enough stuff

Week 24 March 25 29 minutes weight 140.4

March 27 Tuesday 17 minutes of tempo plus 100 seconds of fast stuff

March 31 12 minutes total: 10 minutes mixed intervals 45 seconds rest plus 2 minutes warmups of 2 x 7/7

Summary kept pulling calf muscles( soleus and gastroc) form change 5 weeks ago with no more pulls which is very encouraging but raises a questions about form and injury prevention.

Skipped posting last week...did you miss me??

Rtype that is a HILARIOUS list...am guilty of all of the above plus a few dozen more SUCH activities...cannot wipe the grin off my face after reading that

Great training conversation, Igy, Charlie, Mike L et al

Have done nothing specific this week but did knock out 38 miles with 3 hard progression runs on the track..a 3 miler, a 5 mile, and a good 7 miler...final mile of each in the 7:00s...which feels like 5:00s did a few short years ago...well OK, maybe 20 years ago.

Will race 3,000 meters on the track in 20 days from now but have no big expectations ...middle of the age group maintenance sort of track racing this year 800-10,000

Esoteric stuff though, has a high priority...am 13 days and 70 miles away from combining 'streak' day 500 and 109,000 lifetime miles...should be close...I know what you're thinking, "WHAT a knucklehead"...and with that notion, I would concur.

Have a hoppy Easter/Passover and always remember to "train don't strain"

Your pal,

MF

The latest recovery continued quite positively this week as I have now transitioned back to my typical volume. There is still a little soreness, but it is hardly noticeable while jogging. I’ll continue the heat and ice routine for at least a few more days. Also, the golf course re-opened on Friday. Hopefully I’ll get out there soon.

Sun: 35 min

Mon: off

Tues: off

Wed: 46 min jog, body wt ex

Thu: off

Fri: 53 min jog, body wt ex, med ball routine

Sat: 2 mile walk with the bride

Sun: 54 min jog, body wt ex, med ball routine

Best to all.