50+ Masters Training and Racing Open Forum

Last week was another "big" week for me, at 37 miles in 6 hours and 19 min. Yesterday, Sunday, started off the week with a speed session with my wife, 200's, 800's, 200's. Getting there and finding the wind and cold feeling a bit tougher than expected, cut the 8's to 600's. The cold had us start with 4x200 since we just could not get going, and planned "maybe" two 6's. But my left arch kept cramping up during the first, so bailed out on the 2nd one. I could only manage a 3:00 for mine, she did both of hers in 2:45, a solid effort. We both finished with another 4x200, and it left her pretty tired, so we plan to wait another week before any more track work (this one came only 5 days after the last one).

Running 10 minute miles for an easy run day has gotten hard, seems that approaching age 67 is showing up on me :)

I know I don't mind posting my real name, but I try to avoid controversial postings here, anyone who knows me personally knows my politics, etc. Guess I'd probably not out someone else, though.

Getting a HEAVY rain here in KC today, and off and on rains all week, so glad we got a solid effort in yesterday. Just hope to enjoy being outside and not on the treadmill.

Some GREAT basketball games this weekend, what a finish to them all by seeing KU and Duke have to take it to OT to decide the 4th of the Final Four. Glad for the locals.

Looked like Valencia Spain is a dream come true city to race in, for the beauty. Would like to see the USA race a World Champs more competitively.

Racerdb wrote:

And...not sure about protocol here but outing someone without their permission on an anonymous message board probably isn't cool. Even though most of us know who each other are we don't post each others complete name. Stick to the screen name, or am I wrong?

Dave

Agreed, we've lost more than a few poster's whose names are in the record books because they lost their anonymity. lucKY? Can you use your magic powers?

Racerdb wrote:

I have had a low grade cold lingering for a few weeks...and spending the past week tiling a second story bathroom has seemed to beat my body up a bit. Many trips up and down stairs and hours of work on my knees doesn't help. My back pain is mostly gone but always shows up after sitting for a while.

Racerdb, I feel your pain. Last month I installed and tiled a 100 sq ft bath. 10-foot ceilings. Floor-to-ceiling tile, curbless shower, linear drain. Second-floor. The first floor has 12-foot ceilings, so it was a mountain-climb with each heavy box of tile.

I have had back issues since age 24, and with my current knee woes, a tiling job is the worst. I work solo, so no young helpers to assist. And, like you, I have had some low-grade illness with lingering sniffles for weeks now.

The day before last October's marathon, I was hanging drywall. 12-ft sheets on the ceiling. I don't own a lift, and borrowing one and transporting/setting up for only four sheets didn't seem worth it. Probably should have postponed that work for a couple days, but ya gotta keep the work flow going.

It sure ain't getting any easier. But at least I am seeing some fitness return, even if only 8-9 min mile paces for now.

Agreed regarding screen name etiquette.

Best wishes.

amkelley wrote:

I seem to have slowed down very dramatically over the past year and I don't know how much of that can be attributed to my chronic Achilles heel problems, because even in January and February, when I was able to run 50-60 mpw, I didn't get any speed back. Is it only the inevitable effect of aging, 7 weeks before my 60th birthday?

It is inevitable that we slow down as we age. How much (or little) we slow down depends on many factors, some of which we can control. I try not to worry about things I cannot control, and focus on things I can control.

So what do we need to do, in order to slow down as little as possible? The short answer is "it depends." We are all experiment of one, and we just need to discover what works for each one of us. While that may sound frustrating, I think it's part of fun to find that out on our own. That's just my two cents.

Now my week.

M: off.

T: 7 miles.

W: 7 miles.

R: 9 miles.

F: 7 miles.

SA: 7 miles.

SU: 16.7 miles. (last five miles @ 7:57-7:57-7:57-7:54-7:39).

I had to rearrange my schedule a little bit to accommodate my work requirement. (I am serving on two separate search committees, and we conducted a total of nine phone interviews between the two searches during the week.) I lifted after a long run on Sunday for the first time. And it wasn't pretty. I had to significantly back off the weight, not just on legs, but upper body as well. But now that I had this experience, I will try to avoid lifting after a long run. A valuable lesson learned.

So, you work in construction also? Cool! Yep, I've also worked mostly solo for the past 21 years. I do all my drywall myself too. I have always rented a lift but just last week picked up a used Bil-Jax Panel lift off Craigslist. I do try to schedule easier jobs and shorter days before races but it doesn't always work out.

I've got a pretty big two month job coming up that will require a one hour drive, each way. So I'll need to figure out a running schedule. I do run from my jobsites quite often so that might be what I'll do. Its up on a Southern MI lake that used to be L2b's childhood stomping grounds. Small world!

Dave

Amkelly I had a look at a week of your training back in January. You had just run a half in 1.47 and a few weeks earlier a 5k in around 24 min.

Now I think in kms so I converted your training to kms. It occurred to me that your half pace is around 5 min km pace. So the km pace is comparable to a National level runners MILE pace. Such a guy might run 21 MILES in 1.47 and a 5 miler in 24 mins.

So if he trained at your intensity for the same duration of time this is how his training would look.

Monday bike ride.

Tuesday 16.5 miles at 5.40 pace.

Wednesday 17 miles at 5.35 pace.

Thursday 17 miles at 5.35 pace.

Friday gym.

Saturday 16.5 miles at 5.40 pace.

Sunday 23 miles at 5.30 pace.

So I would suggest you are not running slowly on your training runs at all. If anything perhaps too fast for too long given lifestyle, age and chronic heel issue?

Having said that your tenacity and determination to train hard dedpite your injury issue is mighty inspirational.

Some thoughts from a long time coach and someone that has run and raced since 1965.

I would tend to agree with with mo’pac but as one of the other posters said we are all so different especially as we age. That said, something I see in training schedules that I believe is less than optimal is a level of sameness. Also, volume is important, especially if you are racing longer distances, but there are ways to acquire with less physical stress. Sure if one can train at the level of a 50 year old at 60, you should. On the other hand if one continues to face set-backs, that alone becomes an inhibitor, then modifications should be made. The better athlete in the end is the one that trains a variety of modalities.

If I was coaching a 60 year old half marathoner I would target two races, one fall and one spring. In addition I would schedule 2-3 5ks and 2-3 10ks during the year. Training volume would range from about 20-50 miles, with an average in the 30-40 miles. Most weeks 3-4 days a week running with the other days non-weight bearing. Weight training and core routine emphasized in early to mid-season. One should mix all training modalities of repetitions, intervals and tempos. A weekly easy long run would be standard. I would schedule two yearly breaks of about two weeks each of no running. One around the Christmas/New Years and one around Labor Day.

A couple of thoughts to conclude my thoughts. Running longer distances in a less biomechanically sound manner leads to injury. Just running miles to hit a number builds a false sense of confidence and is not race specific. Once you lose the ability to run fast you have lost your most important asset. Logging miles over the years builds a tremendous aerobic capacity that is money in the bank. Drawing on that reserve takes less mileage than one thinks.

Just some thought on a Monday evening.

Igy

I should point out I was not trying to criticise Amkelly's training, I don't feel knowledgeable enough to critique someone's training plan. But I know the feeling of frustration when everything seems so slow compared to what I used to do. It is easy to forget to relate that pace to your current level rather than compare it to past levels.

RF Reader, mo'pak, Ghost:

Thanks, guys, for the advice. Much of what you're saying is the sort of stuff I already know is right, just hard to follow! Long ago I came to grips with the fact that I'm getting slower, but the accelerating rate of slowing down is becoming disconcerting. I'm well aware that my training should be more varied, but that's just something that's physically and psychologically particularly hard for me. There's a reason my husband calls me "one-speed Annie"--whether it's running, cycling, swimming, or hiking, I basically have one pace that I just can't vary much. I've always been this way--as a little kid I was always last in my class at the 50-yard dash because I had zero speed, and when I was "fast", my 5K pace was barely faster than my marathon pace. I work out before breakfast every day, and on weekdays I want to leave for work at about the same time every day, so it makes sense to get up at the same time and run about the same distance every day. I don't think I'm excessively OCD--I don't do streaks, and I take days off when injured or even mildly ill. But I am a creature of habit.

I do enjoy other physical activities, but not nearly as much as running. Bicycling works well in the warm and light months of summer, but in the winter there just aren't enough daylight hours to enable cycling during the winter half of the year. I'd like to take up swimming if I had a decent pool, which is supposed to be part of an ongoing campus building project. And I lift weights (unenthusiastically) four or five days a week.

I sit here flexing my ankle and thinking that my heel feels a bit sore after an 11.3 mile slow run this morning, but I could surely run again tomorrow. After reading your posts, I'm not going to run tomorrow. I'll spin the bike trainer instead and run again on Wednesday, by which time my heel will surely feel better.

mo'pak wrote:

I don't feel knowledgeable enough to critique someone's training plan.

Bingo.

I, too, am a longtime coach, but I would never offer a training plan for someone without first getting a detailed history. Then, and only then, would it be sensible to have a goal setting session and eventually produce a training plan.

We are all an experiment of one. There is no one size-fits-all plan.

Coach X wrote:

mo'pak wrote:

I don't feel knowledgeable enough to critique someone's training plan.

Bingo.

I, too, am a longtime coach, but I would never offer a training plan for someone without first getting a detailed history. Then, and only then, would it be sensible to have a goal setting session and eventually produce a training plan.

We are all an experiment of one. There is no one size-fits-all plan.

Take the way you wish. It was an effort to be helpful and nothing else.

Igy

amkelley,

My apologies if you considered my post a critique of your training. The intention was to offer up some ideas. By the way, you have quite a bit of talent regardless of your short sprint speed. Take care of that ankle.

Igy

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

Some thoughts from a long time coach and someone that has run and raced since 1965.

That was a very informative post.

Getting older and not being to able to train or race anywhere close to what I did in the past is really tough to handle. I think I really need to back things down, be honest and accept things instead of trying to push thru everyday. amkelley looks to be in the same boat. Its no fun dragging my butt thru most runs just to stay on schedule. I was seriously considering doing the 3-4 days of running/wk before Igy's post and not be a slave to my log book. Its time.

If I run fast, great! If I don't, so what?

Dave

Racerdb wrote:

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

Some thoughts from a long time coach and someone that has run and raced since 1965.

That was a very informative post.

Getting older and not being to able to train or race anywhere close to what I did in the past is really tough to handle. I think I really need to back things down, be honest and accept things instead of trying to push thru everyday. amkelley looks to be in the same boat. Its no fun dragging my butt thru most runs just to stay on schedule. I was seriously considering doing the 3-4 days of running/wk before Igy's post and not be a slave to my log book. Its time.

If I run fast, great! If I don't, so what?

Dave

Racerdb,

Thanks, appreciated. Really trying to toss up a view, for what it is worth.

One of the ideas we tossed around on this thread a year ago was appropriate distances to target in training as one ages. For example if you were training the interval component as a 50 year old male and running 1,000 meters in 3:30, what is appropriate as a 60 year old? I would argue rather than running 1,000 meters you would run 800 meters. Why, the time at that intensity is the training component you are targeting and not the distance. So as you move up in age in makes more sense to me that you continue to adjust the training distances to more specifically target the energy system. The counter argument is you are still training to race 5,000 meters, but that misses the point that you are trying to stimulate those energy components that will make one a better athlete. I believe this general rule would apply to whatever distance you are trying to race.

Igy

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

amkelley,

My apologies if you considered my post a critique of your training. The intention was to offer up some ideas. By the way, you have quite a bit of talent regardless of your short sprint speed. Take care of that ankle.

Igy

No apologies needed! One good reason for posting here is to get advice from people who have well reasoned advice to give. If I were after non-judgmental self-esteem building I'd stick to Facebook.

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

Coach X wrote:

Bingo.

I, too, am a longtime coach, but I would never offer a training plan for someone without first getting a detailed history. Then, and only then, would it be sensible to have a goal setting session and eventually produce a training plan.

We are all an experiment of one. There is no one size-fits-all plan.

Take the way you wish. It was an effort to be helpful and nothing else.

Igy

It seemed like an intelligent overview of your ideas on training rather than a one size fits all plan. Thanks for the input Igy.

mo’pac,

Thanks. Curious to the origin of the reference to Australia as Oz.

Igy

POWER is powerful.

http://now.tufts.edu/articles/power-play

Tons of stuff online thats says it better than I can but from my recent experience(17 months) I am sold on THE NEED FOR SPEED but without grinding it out just feeling light and fast floating along run fast run free

Today as my workout was about done I decided to run free cranked it to 12mph and ran for 40 seconds felt good but I did not plan on 40 seconds or x distance I just ran by feel at this effort. This is kind of subtle and hard to explain. Most of my best workouts are just ad lib . Kinda like how I live

Igy, a lot of what you said in this post is what has worked for me, a near 67 year old with about 75,000 lifetime miles on me after 41 years of running, plus a bit of cross training. Currently, I do focus on one 1/2 in the spring and in the fall, plus a few shorter races to get/keep/add to the speed, though I do go to the track about once per week. Weekly mileage is about 30-35, while in my youth was more 70 or so.

I don't like to take days off, or weeks, but do let myself run a slow, easy 2 to 3 mile run a day after a hard speed session, though now that those runs are getting slower than 11 minute pace, I am seeing that walks may occur sometime soon.

I also agree that running long with an injury seems to be "asking" for a worse injury for me. And seeing that having an aerobic "bank" of miles will fare you well, though we do gradually lose that as our mileage drops, or we steer away from a good base or avoid running altogether. Recognizing a potential injury early and cross-training becomes even more critical for us, as we age and recover from injuries more slowly.

Where I would find a difference with you, is that, if 30-40 mpw is optimal 1/2 training, it can be pretty hard to reach those miles on 3-4 days/week of running, that can mean 10 miles daily or more. Also, taking a couple weeks off from running altogether seems to cause us (wife and I) to lose running fitness much quicker than in our younger years, so an easy 3 miler daily would work better for us than non-running for a couple weeks.

Anyhow, much of what you said I agree with, though our personal experiences have a few differences. Thanks for your input. We're still working to get a) me to the finish line of this spring's 1/2 marathon and b) a sub 7 track mile for her in early June. Another fun year of the "experiment of one". Thanks again for your insight!