LYDIARD OR DANIELS?

Yes, I have a comment. Thanks for the summary.

Lydiard and other knowledgeable coaches mention the importance of the fact that when lifting our feet high behind us (backlift) we can maintain a long stride with a quick turnover.

This is not just true for sprinting, but for all of our racing.

It takes a lot of training to be able to do this in distance races, but it is essentially what all the best racers do. Runners who shuffle along economically can run fast times, but they will always be beaten by runners with a more powerful stride, even in a Marathon.

We may have covered as much as there is to cover. Since this is a Lydiard vs. Daniels thread, I could bring up Arthur's dislike for eating fish and for driving cars with automatic transmissions and see if jtupper likes either one.

Or, there was a brief thread about Allison Roe here the other day. Kim, I know you told me that she worked with Arthur for a while and then moved on. Maybe you could put that story up.

Ding, dong, the thread is NOT dead?

An advice many of the letsrun thread readers can use, something Lydiard always said; when you read something, have a look at who's giving that comment and see if they are really in a position to give such comment...

I have a picture of Lydiard's camp for young girls in the 70s. Young Allison is one of them. Not that she ran 100MPW but does it really matter? She definitely WAS a Lydiard-trained runner. Unfortunately, I don't think she had temperament for the marathon (all she accomplished was winning Boston and NY in the same year and the world record...). I remember Lorraine telling me something about her training more along the way of original Lydiardism then I believe Gary Elliot was more into faster runs and that's when she set the WR. But then the question is; how much longer did she last after that, compared to someone like Lorraine? I have gotten to know Allison (and, believe me, it was a JOY to get to know her!) and we talked about working together on the Lydiard video. "Because it's for Arthur," was all she needed to say.

In other thread, someone named "Lydiard" mentioned something about Snell "only" running 80 miles mostly on grass with two repetiton days a week during conditioning. That's quite new to me. I'd like to confirm that with Dr. Snell... For one, he may not have run 100 all the time but the point is that he always tried to reach that high (with weekly Waitak). Here we go again, 60MPW, 80MPW, or 91MPW...it really doesn't matter, does it? I trained my wife on 30MPW on the Lydiard principle...

I believe Lydiard was one of the first coaches who emphasized the importance of basic running mechanics for all distances; sending his distance men and marathon men to do some sprint drills and sprint races at club level. His hill training, in fact, is designed to work on mechanics of running.

However, I also think biomechanics of running (particularly sprinting) is one of the fields that has advanced, or revised, quite dramatically in the past 10 years or so. I have a priviledge to obtain a basic paper by coach Tom Tellez (thanks, Steve Magnes!) recently as well as biomechanics report written by one of the Japanese sprinters, Tsuchiye (10.2). It's quite fascinating and I have not quite understood how it all works. Someday, I would love to share the info (by Tsuchiye) with coach Tellez and compare notes.

One thing I know, after talking to a couple of biomechanic experts in Japan (and they put quite a bit of emphasis on it) is that, even though he might have put it somewhat incorrectly, the basic points that Lydiard made were quite "spot-on". In other words, for example, whether you "lift your knees" or "extend your back leg" doing hill bounding, in the scheme of action-reaction, you get the same end-result. You still work on the exact movement that's necessary to run fast and it is probably one of the best exercises, if you can handle it safely, to achieve it.

This is in part an answer to both HRE and Nobby.

Yes ! when Alison Roe ran a 2:50 Marathon here in NZ she won a trip to an overseas marathon. I know she went to Arthur for help and he set her on her way.

I know one of the aspects that had to be done was our favourite "Waiatarua" run on a Sunday.

The most popular starting place for that run in the early 80's was the Lynndale Clubrooms. That made it a 19 mile circuit.

Lynndale at that time had a rather charismatic character (and very tough runner) who was doing a bit of Coaching. His name : Gary Elliot. Gary believed that Waiatarua needed to be run rather quickly.

Alison started running from the Lynndale Clubroome and got to know Gary really well on those runs. Then Alison went "over" to Gary Elliot for Coaching and Arthur

was furious and felt quite betrayed. I can remember him saying after Alison ran her NY marathon that she would never run any good again. She did not !

I know because around that time I had a young woman who was running very well and I used to check in with Arthur about what I was doing with her.( Sound familiar : I mentioned this just a little while ago in the thread)

She suddenly decided she would also "defect" to the Elliot Camp (her boyfriend at the time was in that Camp) and I asked Arthur what I should do.

Arthur was as Blunt as he can be ! He told me to "Write her off and have nothing to do with her". He said "If you have anything to with her again I will write you off as well !!" Needless to say I did not have anything to do with her again !!!!!.

He said she would not make it under Gary's training and would ultimately fade off the scene. Never a Truer word was spoken !!.

Gary believed in doing a lot of very fast work and ultimately Alison broke down.

I feel if she had stayed with Arthur her Career would have paralelled Lorraine's. Her talent was unreal.

She could run Waiatarua as well as any man !!

As I have mentioned before, Loyalty was very high in Arthur's makeup.

Nobby, I guess Alison must have made up with Arthur in recent years. Having been out of Auckland for so long I am not up with the play on these things.

Lydiard Microcycles wrote:

Lydiard and other knowledgeable coaches mention the importance of the fact that when lifting our feet high behind us (backlift) we can maintain a long stride with a quick turnover.

This is not just true for sprinting, but for all of our racing.

It takes a lot of training to be able to do this in distance races, but it is essentially what all the best racers do. Runners who shuffle along economically can run fast times, but they will always be beaten by runners with a more powerful stride, even in a Marathon.

I'd like to add my 2 cents. Actually it has been proven that high backlift may also hinder your efficiency. If the heel goes up too high in distance races, you are not running economically. It has been researched that jumping up and down and high heel kick are a result of OVERSTRIDING, which is in fact inefficient even at the end of the race (aka sprint or kick). However, shuffling is also hindering fast running.

In fact there are all kinds of runners around who are very fast: take Viren, who had very low backlift and was very fast in the kick. On the other hand, Bekele is exceptionally high heel kicker and is a WR holder. Tergat is also low heel kicker, except for the sprint finish when his form changes... Sileshi Sihine is a high heel kicker, Gebremariam shuffles around, both are very fast.

It all depends on length of legs and strength of the hamstrings.

Gday guys,

Im another one who has been Observing this great thread for a long time. I have been keen to contribute so before I do I just want to explain my connection to Arthur and my thoughts about him and his methods.

Well, Im a 19 yr old Kiwi (800m 1500m runner). I began running 4 and a bit years ago, and my coach Mike has coached my entirely using Arthurs Principles. I am a great believer and wont be swayed. My connection to Arthur is that my coach Mike was coached by Barry Magee for many years. So subsequently everything has been passed down, even all the nitty gritty stuff like lydiard lacing etc. I am probably one of a handful of young athletes in NZ now that are being coached entirely using Arthurs Philosophies. I am a good friend of Kim Stevensons and know that he coaches his guys using Arthurs principles too (as I am good mates with the guys he coaches), which is something Arthur would be proud of. The other connection I have is that I live in Waitakere City - Home of the mighty Waiatarua! This is my doorstep! I frequent the other roads a lot too (Shaw road and Parker road - the roads just before the start of the BIG one), and remain one of the few that still do Lynndale Waiataruas on Sunday mornings on occasion. So Arthurs Influence is still strong around here. But something I am immensely proud of was at the beginning of this year I had an article in the local rag(paper)after I had won a biggish race, about me using Arthurs methods, and basically what I told you above. I just felt that I owed so much to him, that it was the least I could do and something that I am very proud of.

So basically that is who I am, I just wanted to explain that before I contributed to the thread which I plan to do in the future. But lastly, Thank you to all you guys who have contributed immensely to this thread - Nobby, HRE, Kim, Glenn...theres too many to name! But thank you, Arthur would be stoked with this and glad to see that his philosophies are still Alive and Kickin!(Which the man himself would have been very proud to see)

Kim:

I would not necessarily say Arthur and Allison "made up". It was definitely Allison "wanting to please" Arthur. You know, as well as I do, how Arthur is toward "doing business behind his back"! And once is more than enough.

Everybody has his/her own running style but the fundamentals are still the same. Lydiard talked about "bringing your foot close to the buttocks" in the means to say "by shortening your leg lever, you can move your leg quicker, easier to bring it to the front, and this high-knee action can produce longer strides." One of the exercises he prescribed for this is what he called "striding". This actually does NOT involve "high back kick" The idea is to "bring your foot quickly and high to the front". This exercise used to be used by great coach Bud Winter as well and, though Arthur might have not been totally correct in biomechanical term, it does do the job.

Now in terms of shuffling, I may not necessarily say that it's the bad thing. In fact, it's more toward "shuffling" action Tsuchiye was talking about for sprinting as well as Koji Itoh (10.0 for Asian record) as well as Shingo Suetsugu (bronze medal in 200 in Paris WC). It's got something to do with the angle of pelvis and what not I can't really explain (I'm still studying!). Again, there are some fundamentals; and the point is how to obtain faster and longer strides and how you can achieve them in the most natural way in practice (not by "thinking about it").

It always annoys me when people say "which (current) world record holder has Lydiard coached?" or "which gold medalist in the last Olympics did Lydiard coach?" without having NO idea what kind of influence Lydiardism has actually had on them.

The truth is; Lydiardism has EVERYTHING to do with personal triumph and personal improvement. Every little-town high school cross country race, every regional road race or dinky little track meet; there is some kid who improved dramatically or claim local championships title because his/her old coach followed the Lydiard principle.

After Snell and Halberg, Lydiard had engaged himself with coaching young high school girls; some of whom moved on to internationa scenes like Heather Charmicael, Kiristi McMiken, Glynis Quick, and Allison Roe. There are a bunch of young boys he has helped around his Beachland house; some of whom I'm sure if they keep it up that principle (remember, Lydiardism is all about long-term development, not a quick-fix), they would penetrate into the international scene.

Good on ya and keep it up, 800west. By the way, Tom Osborne is flying down to TX right around now to actually meet with Peter Snell to talk to him about the "importance" of going the distance for middle distance runners.

...or DARE I say "necessity" of going the distance for middle distance runners?

800west:

Welcome to the board. Wish I could have met you when I was in Auckland last Aug-Sept. I was able to experience the mighty Waiatarua first hand. Maybe next year when I come back, we can run one together. Do you happen to know a new friend of mine in Remuera - Daryll Robets? He's about your age. Or maybe I guy I raced alongside of there - Adam Berry? Please continue to contribute. I want to know more about how Arthur's ideas are perceived by young NZ runners.

Guys:

Regarding knee/heel lift: I'm not sure that you can have heels come through high, without high knee lift as well. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable can comment. I remember Arthur advising me to avoid lifting the knees very high during a marathon, and instead saving that for the finish. His wife Joelyn reinforced that before the Legend race, saying that Arthur told her the same thing. He maintained that most of us can't maintain that kind of knee lift for 26 miles. He said that some of the African marathon runners could maintain lift due to a different body type. (hope I'm not skating on thin ice here - just remembering what the man said!) On the other hand, he talked about Carl Lewis being so fast because his heels came right up to his bum. So, I guess it depends on the event in question? 100m is a far cry from 42km.

Good to see 800west on board. he is being rather reticent about his ability though. He is current NZ Secondary Schools 1500m Champ.

One of my biggest regrets of last year is that Arthur was not at those Champs to see 800west win along with one of my athletes runner up in the 800 (Winner had been given an automatic finals berth ...... Politics !!!!!!!) and then another winning the Girls 800. She was considered a Rank outsider. Coached by one of my 'old' athletes.

Tom Osborne who is travelling down to see Peter Snell is potentially one of our best. I took him on his first runs over 11/2 hours a few months ago in our forest (One of Arthur's favourite training areas). Hopefully, when he returns from the USA it will be with an even more positive attitude having spent so much time with Lorraine Moller.

May the Lydiard "Force" roll on

Hotlanta:

What Arthur was saying is that you need to immulate the correct running technique which is high knee lift in relation to the speed at which you'd be running. "You don't run the marathon with high knees," he had said, "but by practicing it, you obtain the correct running technique." Again, it's not that you need to bring your foot to the buttocks or your knees paralell to the ground (as you might do in steep hill running) that's important; but the fundamental of lever principle that you need to apply to your own running form and practice it by exaggerating that movement.

Thanks Nobby. That makes sense.

Oh, c'mon, HRE; we've barely touched the tactics! In regards to Arthur's dislike of fish, Nakamura treated me with sushi so I'd have to disagree with Arthur on this one!

Nobby,

I want to split the Lydiard force in two. There is Lydiard the charismatic inspirational coach. And there are the ideas and principles he espoused. I contacted the ideas long before I every hear of the man. In high school in the late '60s I had a pen pal from New Zealand who happened to be a runner who happened to run about the same times as I did. So he told be about his training and it made sense to me so I did that kind of training and mileage. My high school coach was the football coach so knew nothing and thankfully did not try to coach me. So I learned in letters from New Zealand. As far as I knew this kid, Bill Tutty from Gore, made up all that stuff. He never told me where it came from or mentioned the name Lydiard. Only much later did I figure out that it must have come from Lydiard in some lineage. My point is that the ideas and principles stand on their own.

Lydiard, the personality I met only briefly almost exactly a year ago. That was a different experience.

Tom

Cheers Kim. That wouldve been awesome to have Arthur down there. Also Ive always wanted to meet Peter Snell as hes a big idol of mine, Roy Williams offered to contact him for me when I was in houston but I wasnt able to get up to Dallas that time. But hopefully in the future I will be able to get up there to meet him.

Hotlanta: I remember you posting on the nzrun board before you came out. Unfortunately I was crook at the time and wasnt running. But next time your down here I will definitely have to show you some more of Arthurs favourtie routes through the waitaks. Regarding what NZ juniors of Arthurs ideas - Well its a real mix really. Many juniors here are scared of anything to moderate to high mileage (anything more than about 80km/week is seen as too much by most juniors). There are also a few coaches here who say they are advocates of Lydiard Principles but in reality are only adopting parts of his programs, which lead to alot of their athletes breaking down and subsequently juniors becoming scared and sceptical of Arthurs system. But in saying that there is still a tremendous amount of respect for him here, as shown by the large amount of juniors that attended his funeral.

Regarding Daryll and Adam - I know both of them. Ive raced daryll a few times over crossy and on the track when i was younger. Adam ran with us the last time we ran Waiatarua, he has only run it about 3-4 times so he struggled up the hill a bit, but he sure is a hardworker thats for sure.

Derderian-san:

I saw your comment on your NZ friend somewhere on internet and that's what made me to contact you for Arthur's Boston clinic. You should have been careful of what you post...