2600 bro wrote:
Good post.
My personal pendulum of judgement has swung back and forth a few times throughout this thread but it seems, as with many (but not all) things, the truth is in the middle.
"In the middle" is also where any pendulum will end up eventually.
Dr. Pepper wrote:
And Adidas may have paid for the tuition at CU. So a degree from a flagship university.
Yes, it’s common knowledge that Adidas covered tuition at CU. This part is confirmed.
Alexi Santana wrote:
Dr. Pepper wrote:
And Adidas may have paid for the tuition at CU. So a degree from a flagship university.
Yes, it’s common knowledge that Adidas covered tuition at CU. This part is confirmed.
Is he still in school?
I've been reading letsrun and before that, TNFMedia, since the 90s and I think I have a good handle on what a real post looks like and when a small group of people are posting under different handles as a smear campaign. Also, I've kept up w/ this entire thread and read every single post. Heck, I even agreed w/ Rojo a few times!
That said, I feel that all or at least the majority of the former client comments are true. He appeared to not put as much work into the "individualized" training as people expected.
My takeaways are:
1) Tom no longer or possibly never did put as much attention into most of his clients as they deserve or were led to believe they'd get. Maybe he gives his HS studs what they require (Drew back then and the current kids) but not his $200/mo people and certainly not the Tinman Track Club. Their letter said it all. My guess is TME felt this too, and thats why they encouraged a move to Boulder.
Things didn't change when he was local and, additionally, his grating personality probably made things worse esp during a global pandemic/election involving a very polarizing candidate when tensions were super high. Dozens of people on here talked about said grating personality.
2.) There is a massive disconnect between today's 20 somethings w/ the social media/look-at-me culture and grown ups of a certain age/background. I believe Tom fell into this camp as do some of the people posting here (Ghost of Ig. for example). They're never going to understand someone posting everything "for the views", and how could they? Others seem baffled at the sale of merch (despite it apparently funding a lot of the club). I happen to see tremendous value in it for a few reasons.
Regardless, when you put this all together:
-Coach they felt wasn't active enough
-Coach's grating personality
-Injuries
-Drew's times were matched by several of his teammates (who were originally designed to be his SUPPORT training partners) and he's possibly not the top dog anymore
-Tom didn't like the social media stuff, which for better or worse is the heart and soul of the group, and openly opposed it
-Tom felt underpaid/under appreciated
There HAD to be a nasty breakup. It was inevitable.
Finally- there must have been a decent amount of fighting going on pre-breakup that we haven't heard about yet. Although Tammy didn't bring it up and TME has been largely quiet, the burner IG accounts thing and then the break up via phone (via Connor Winter??) are what's leading me to this conclusion.
My take:
I agree w/ TME on most of this and as both a non 20 something and a non old man, can see what they're doing on SM and why. I also think a running career is too short to sit around and not make moves. I guess you could say I'm on their side.
However, I do think they should rebrand to either
a) a new T.M.E. that doesnt use the words "Tin Man"
b) Big Horn Track Club.
Either way, keep the Hammer and Axe logo.
Give Tom his name back (ya I understand the power of the brand they built, but changing their name on IG doesn't lose their followers....) and let him go back to coaching middle school and a select group of HS elites.
Well Tom voted for Bill Clinton once and got the COVID vaccine. So he is clearly right in this instance guys.
Shea it Aint So Also wrote:
I've been reading letsrun and before that, TNFMedia, since the 90s and I think I have a good handle on what a real post looks like and when a small group of people are posting under different handles as a smear campaign. Also, I've kept up w/ this entire thread and read every single post. Heck, I even agreed w/ Rojo a few times!
That said, I feel that all or at least the majority of the former client comments are true. He appeared to not put as much work into the "individualized" training as people expected.
My takeaways are:
1) Tom no longer or possibly never did put as much attention into most of his clients as they deserve or were led to believe they'd get. Maybe he gives his HS studs what they require (Drew back then and the current kids) but not his $200/mo people and certainly not the Tinman Track Club. Their letter said it all. My guess is TME felt this too, and thats why they encouraged a move to Boulder.
Things didn't change when he was local and, additionally, his grating personality probably made things worse esp during a global pandemic/election involving a very polarizing candidate when tensions were super high. Dozens of people on here talked about said grating personality.
2.) There is a massive disconnect between today's 20 somethings w/ the social media/look-at-me culture and grown ups of a certain age/background. I believe Tom fell into this camp as do some of the people posting here (Ghost of Ig. for example). They're never going to understand someone posting everything "for the views", and how could they? Others seem baffled at the sale of merch (despite it apparently funding a lot of the club). I happen to see tremendous value in it for a few reasons.
Regardless, when you put this all together:
-Coach they felt wasn't active enough
-Coach's grating personality
-Injuries
-Drew's times were matched by several of his teammates (who were originally designed to be his SUPPORT training partners) and he's possibly not the top dog anymore
-Tom didn't like the social media stuff, which for better or worse is the heart and soul of the group, and openly opposed it
-Tom felt underpaid/under appreciated
There HAD to be a nasty breakup. It was inevitable.
Finally- there must have been a decent amount of fighting going on pre-breakup that we haven't heard about yet. Although Tammy didn't bring it up and TME has been largely quiet, the burner IG accounts thing and then the break up via phone (via Connor Winter??) are what's leading me to this conclusion.
My take:
I agree w/ TME on most of this and as both a non 20 something and a non old man, can see what they're doing on SM and why. I also think a running career is too short to sit around and not make moves. I guess you could say I'm on their side.
However, I do think they should rebrand to either
a) a new T.M.E. that doesnt use the words "Tin Man"
b) Big Horn Track Club.
Either way, keep the Hammer and Axe logo.
Give Tom his name back (ya I understand the power of the brand they built, but changing their name on IG doesn't lose their followers....) and let him go back to coaching middle school and a select group of HS elites.
I go back to that era too, and this summary captures it all pretty well, right down to more or less agreeing with rojo (hell froze over!), and seeing that guys like G of Ig, don't get it/never will, blindly partisan and stubbornly blind. Mixed on the renaming, likely a good idea and better for all, while giving some time for transitioning.
they should go by Tinmom wrote:
Mixed on the renaming, likely a good idea and better for all, while giving some time for transitioning.
I mainly think they should change it to give Tinman a small win and allow him to move on. Someone in another thread mentioned the Redskins name change as reasons why it won’t affect TME (except the gear they’re likely sitting on). Nobody will stop liking them because they’re now going by Big Horn TC or whatever they decide on.
And i still believe they can come up with something that has the initials “TME”.
So nearing 50 pages, we can probably crystallize our positions rather simply.
To me:
1. Cory Leslie played a role in this coup. As such, still would like an exact figure (beyond social media attention or advertising) on how much is actually paid to Schwartz and Leslie?
2. Drew is only one to possibly make a team. In fact, as of today, no other Americans in the group are qualified for the Olympic Trials. This is “sub-elite” as the window has been open since SP ‘19.
3. Schwartz is an odd fellow.
4. This sub-elite level is in many ways the hardest to deal with. They don’t really have a contract, an agent, or a performance to point towards “chasing the dream” of the Olympics, but they think they do.
5. With all that, The more I hear about what adidas doesn't invest, these are some resourceful dudes for sure.
college guys wrote:
So nearing 50 pages, we can probably crystallize our positions rather simply.
To me:
1. Cory Leslie played a role in this coup. As such, still would like an exact figure (beyond social media attention or advertising) on how much is actually paid to Schwartz and Leslie?
2. Drew is only one to possibly make a team. In fact, as of today, no other Americans in the group are qualified for the Olympic Trials. This is “sub-elite” as the window has been open since SP ‘19.
3. Schwartz is an odd fellow.
4. This sub-elite level is in many ways the hardest to deal with. They don’t really have a contract, an agent, or a performance to point towards “chasing the dream” of the Olympics, but they think they do.
5. With all that, The more I hear about what adidas doesn't invest, these are some resourceful dudes for sure.
Rumor mill- I heard Corey Leslie got 100,000k.
Great way to land on his feet after being fired from ASU.
shootpost wrote:
college guys wrote:
So nearing 50 pages, we can probably crystallize our positions rather simply.
To me:
1. Cory Leslie played a role in this coup. As such, still would like an exact figure (beyond social media attention or advertising) on how much is actually paid to Schwartz and Leslie?
2. Drew is only one to possibly make a team. In fact, as of today, no other Americans in the group are qualified for the Olympic Trials. This is “sub-elite” as the window has been open since SP ‘19.
3. Schwartz is an odd fellow.
4. This sub-elite level is in many ways the hardest to deal with. They don’t really have a contract, an agent, or a performance to point towards “chasing the dream” of the Olympics, but they think they do.
5. With all that, The more I hear about what adidas doesn't invest, these are some resourceful dudes for sure.
Rumor mill- I heard Corey Leslie got 100,000k.
Great way to land on his feet after being fired from ASU.
That merch musta REALLY been selling WELL!
Shea it Aint So Also wrote:
My takeaways are:
1) Tom no longer or possibly never did put as much attention into most of his clients as they deserve or were led to believe they'd get. Maybe he gives his HS studs what they require (Drew back then and the current kids) but not his $200/mo people and certainly not the Tinman Track Club. Their letter said it all. My guess is TME felt this too, and thats why they encouraged a move to Boulder.
How much customization would you really expect from a remote coach? Dude has a system that you can generate from a spreadsheet and other than saying you look a bit tired, let's push the workout off a day or do reps a bit slower, I wouldn't expect massive changes.
ddidididid wrote:
Shea it Aint So Also wrote:
My takeaways are:
1) Tom no longer or possibly never did put as much attention into most of his clients as they deserve or were led to believe they'd get. Maybe he gives his HS studs what they require (Drew back then and the current kids) but not his $200/mo people and certainly not the Tinman Track Club. Their letter said it all. My guess is TME felt this too, and thats why they encouraged a move to Boulder.
Then you might as well buy a training book.
How much customization would you really expect from a remote coach? Dude has a system that you can generate from a spreadsheet and other than saying you look a bit tired, let's push the workout off a day or do reps a bit slower, I wouldn't expect massive changes.
shootpost wrote:
college guys wrote:
So nearing 50 pages, we can probably crystallize our positions rather simply.
To me:
1. Cory Leslie played a role in this coup. As such, still would like an exact figure (beyond social media attention or advertising) on how much is actually paid to Schwartz and Leslie?
2. Drew is only one to possibly make a team. In fact, as of today, no other Americans in the group are qualified for the Olympic Trials. This is “sub-elite” as the window has been open since SP ‘19.
3. Schwartz is an odd fellow.
4. This sub-elite level is in many ways the hardest to deal with. They don’t really have a contract, an agent, or a performance to point towards “chasing the dream” of the Olympics, but they think they do.
5. With all that, The more I hear about what adidas doesn't invest, these are some resourceful dudes for sure.
Rumor mill- I heard Corey Leslie got 100,000k.
Great way to land on his feet after being fired from ASU.
Schwartz $2000/month
Leslie $100,000
If true, guess that explains change.
ddidididid wrote:
How much customization would you really expect from a remote coach? Dude has a system that you can generate from a spreadsheet and other than saying you look a bit tired, let's push the workout off a day or do reps a bit slower, I wouldn't expect massive changes.
Maybe i used the wrong word. Did you read the letter from TMTC? Not hearing back and ultimately not even having workouts in whatever system they use is pretty egregious.
If Cory Leslie is really getting 100K, presumably from Adidas, they must have really known this was a sh*t show. Esp considering they didn’t pay Tom a penny.
When I was Coached by the Tinman I briefly spoke to Drew in Coogans after Drew's HS Indoor Mile Record at the Millrose Games. Drew said "Tom really does know what he's doing and that's why I am here." Just as Tom constantly remined me, Drew mentioned the importance of doing all '"the little things." I have always failed at getting sufficient sleep as a runner, something that always led to injuries and poor performance. When I texted Tom I had just chatted with Drew, Tom proceeded to explain how meticulous Drew had been at following every detail of the coaching leading up to his incredible fall and winter performances. There wasn't the slightest hint of the "goofball" identity Drew would adopt in TME. His hair was clean cut, he was soft-spoken, with confidence, but not the cringeworthy hubris he's known for today. As a HS runner I saw an example of excellence, with undeniable talent, but more importantly an incredible work ethic. Tom constantly used Drew as an example for his other HS athletes because regardless of the hype and pressure, he never failed to do everything Tom told him to a tee.
I would urge all to consider the affect significant changes in an athlete may have on his performance before making brash speculative claims on the coach's ability.
total ripoff wrote:
I had a bad experience with Tinman too. Myself, my girlfriend and my former teammate all decided to sign up for Tinman coaching to train for a half marathon (my girlfriend for a 5k). For 3 months we all got the exact same training plan.
We confronted him about it and he got really angry that we were questioning him.
Willing to bet it's the same I got too haha
TheAtlasRunner wrote:
When I was Coached by the Tinman I briefly spoke to Drew in Coogans after Drew's HS Indoor Mile Record at the Millrose Games. Drew said "Tom really does know what he's doing and that's why I am here." Just as Tom constantly remined me, Drew mentioned the importance of doing all '"the little things." I have always failed at getting sufficient sleep as a runner, something that always led to injuries and poor performance. When I texted Tom I had just chatted with Drew, Tom proceeded to explain how meticulous Drew had been at following every detail of the coaching leading up to his incredible fall and winter performances. There wasn't the slightest hint of the "goofball" identity Drew would adopt in TME. His hair was clean cut, he was soft-spoken, with confidence, but not the cringeworthy hubris he's known for today. As a HS runner I saw an example of excellence, with undeniable talent, but more importantly an incredible work ethic. Tom constantly used Drew as an example for his other HS athletes because regardless of the hype and pressure, he never failed to do everything Tom told him to a tee.
I would urge all to consider the affect significant changes in an athlete may have on his performance before making brash speculative claims on the coach's ability.
This is why Drew should have gone to a top college program. These big programs like Stanford, NAU, Oregon, CU, etc are very regimented and leave little time for goofing off. You have a coach, and you do what he says, regardless of how fast and special you might be out of high school.
Unfortunately TME seems to have been run by these immature athletes themselves, which is the main problem. They needed proper guidance. I feel bad for Drew. Adidas is really the party at fault here for offering such an absurd contract.
college guys wrote:
shootpost wrote:
Rumor mill- I heard Corey Leslie got 100,000k.
Great way to land on his feet after being fired from ASU.
Schwartz $2000/month
Leslie $100,000
If true, guess that explains change.
Don't know about leslie's pay but have heard he is also doing work on the business end of things. It has also been been discerned in this thread the $2000 a month was from the 12 other athletes and Hunter provided the equivalent of an introductory teacher's salary. It was less than 60K total, but likely more than $50K, being that the teacher's salary would be in the $30K to $35K range.
androitly speaking wrote:
college guys wrote:
Schwartz $2000/month
Leslie $100,000
If true, guess that explains change.
Don't know about leslie's pay but have heard he is also doing work on the business end of things. It has also been been discerned in this thread the $2000 a month was from the 12 other athletes and Hunter provided the equivalent of an introductory teacher's salary. It was less than 60K total, but likely more than $50K, being that the teacher's salary would be in the $30K to $35K range.
I don't really understand why Drew would pay more. Yes, he has more money, but was he getting extra attention, extra special treatment? Was it just a favor to Tinman?