Modifying the Norwegian approach to lower mileage

jma · 2023-07-24T18:51:51-04:00

What does the model look like in the base phase, while building up to the threshold? I was reading this thread about K. Ingebrigtsen's training, https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=11836681, 3Q + a long run seems to be a bit much at lower mileage (40mpw). Is it needed? Would another easy run work instad? How should the model be adjusted for that mileage?

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5 months ago 12/26/2025 12:58pm EST

re: Eliud Bekele

Eliud Bekele wrote:
In an attempt to steer this conversation away from Jan and his less then well thought out training plans, here's my review of 4 chinese running shoes
Li-Ning Red Hare 8 Pro (90km)
Picked these up for £30 and while not the softest, they are a great choice for those looking for something lower stack that allows you to feel more ground contact in a world of supermax cushion trainers. Very responsive and very light (190g) and a solid addition to my rotation. I have three pairs. The outsole has excellent grip and looks like it can go to 500km+ easily. My choice for wet and frosty daily runs.
Li-Ning Feidian 5 Challenger (250km)
In my opinion the best value shoe on the market. A carbon plated speed trainer that weighs in at 200g and feels very similar to the Vaporfly 2, which I still have in my rotation. The difference being this cost me £45. I have two pairs, one at 200km and another at 50km, the one at 200km has been through torrential rain and is still just as poppy as day 1. Grip is excellent, my only complaint is they are a bit narrow so you have to be careful when cornering. Genuinely considering buying 5 pairs and never having to think about my speed day rotation again for another 2 years 😂
Do-Win PB Pro (30km)
Supposedly this is an adidas pro evo 1 clone, coming with the same foam and weighing only 145g in my UK size 7. This shoe is VERY narrow and I'm not a huge fan of the lockdown. Unlike sirpoc I found this shoe to be slower than the Puma Fast R-3 and more unstable when cornering, though my legs don't feel as beat up after running workouts in them. IMO they are better for the half marathon distance and possibly the marathon, while for the 5k/10k there are better options. However given it costs £100 and the pumas almost £300 they are a no-brainer if you're looking for a top of the range modern racer and are a bit strapped for cash.
Dynafish Xiaonian (40km)
At £85, these are cheaper than the EVO SL and almost a third of the cost of an ASICS Megablast, yet it is a tier above both.
I have only ran 40km in this shoe and I can already say it is the best daily trainer I have ever worn, and possibly the best daily trainer ever made. This is the pinnacle of max stack design, coming in at only 180g despite having 41mm of foam and amazing stability. It's super soft but responsive while also having a rocker more aggressive than some racing shoes. The only flaw is the lugs on the outsole are pretty small so it isn't the best in slippy conditions, but otherwise I genuinely look forward to my easy days and long runs in this shoe, which is something I never thought I would say under NSA.

Which shop/store on aliexpress did you pick up the Dynafish from?

5 months ago 12/26/2025 1:26pm EST

re: obturator

obturator wrote:
atoponce wrote:
I was curious to see how accurate this claim is, so I dug a little bit. and it seems they agree. That is, if you want to train heart stroke volume and improve myocardial contractility, you need to run closer to your AeT.
Link:blogs.bmj.com/bjsm/2023/10/23/the-erro...
They find (emphasis mine):
I might be misinterpreting the finding however.
Any comments on this study from the science guys/gals on here? I might take a closer look at this study at work today if I get some time.

The study is looking at cardiac adaptations. This is an obsolete view. Running performance is not limited by stroke volume or myocardial contractility.

What has to be improved is mitochondrial function in our leg muscles.

It's not about the heart, it's about the mitochondria !

5 months ago 12/26/2025 1:42pm EST

re: Charlesvdw

Charlesvdw wrote:
The study is looking at cardiac adaptations. This is an obsolete view. Running performance is not limited by stroke volume or myocardial contractility.
What has to be improved is mitochondrial function in our leg muscles.
It's not about the heart, it's about the mitochondria !

It's actually about both.

VO2max sets the upper limit of aerobic performance, and what sets those with a higher VO2max apart is a greater SV.

To take full advantage of that capacity, though, the muscles also need to highly trained.

Based on the success many seem to have doing lots of "subT" intervals, it appears that many hobbyjoggers have failed to maximize the peripheral adaptations to training.

5 months ago 12/26/2025 1:47pm EST

re: Charlesvdw

I get that there's a strong anti vo2 sentiment here, and training-wise it's for sensible reasons.

However, all things equal, a higher stroke volume, and/or a more elastic heart, and thereby higher amount of O2 delivered to the working muscles, will translate into improved aerobic performance in a given person.

This is different from saying do classic vo2max work, mind

Also garden variety endurance work will also induce adaptations in the heart, which accounts for some performance improvements. So it's not only about peripheral adaptations.

So stroke volume is very clearly a constraint.

5 months ago 12/26/2025 1:56pm EST

re: LarsL11

LarsL11 wrote:
runners are clueless wrote:
Is that enough to also maximize anaerobic capacity, though.
I'm thinking that even a hobbyjogger would need a "special block" of training (plus a good taper) to run 5k as fast as absolutely possible.
Probably, but I dont know if it would make sense for a hobby jogger to prioritize a 5k to that degree? Losing training from the taper and the period following, change up training for the special block, risk injury. A hobby jogger cant really control if the special block and taper if offset by a demanding work schedule etc.
You would be hard pressed to have sprcial blocks if you want to run 2-6 5k, 2-3 10ks, a HM or two etc like many(?) hobby joggers do. If I leave 5% on the table on that one 5k its fine for me, there is allways a new race.

lol that is literally the only distance i run, save a rare 10k

you might need a little more ‘hardening’ in some aspects

my problem is more pacing than sprinkling the random intensity

dont get me wrong, the 5k is definitely a riskier proposition especially if you splash in any strides or 200/400s approaching a ‘peak’ race

5 months ago 12/26/2025 1:58pm EST

re: runners are clueless

runners are clueless wrote:
LarsL11 wrote:
Probably, but I dont know if it would make sense for a hobby jogger to prioritize a 5k to that degree? Losing training from the taper and the period following, change up training for the special block, risk injury. A hobby jogger cant really control if the special block and taper if offset by a demanding work schedule etc.
You would be hard pressed to have sprcial blocks if you want to run 2-6 5k, 2-3 10ks, a HM or two etc like many(?) hobby joggers do. If I leave 5% on the table on that one 5k its fine for me, there is allways a new race.
Life is full of choices.
My point is simply that I don't think that you could wring 100.00% out of yourself without addressing all of the factors contributing to performance over that distance (and shorter).

Yeah. To be honest I dont think people with a job and family can wring 100% out of anything other than the 5,6,7,8 hours they got for training.

There is also the issue of trying to wring 100% out of your current form, or focusing on developing for the future. Maximising the last 10 percentage points isnt that interesting for me when I need some years to not completely suck.

But I guess others might get a positive result by trying to peak their training for the 5k. The beauty of being a hobby jogger is that you can just go ahead and try.

This post was edited 2 minutes after it was posted.

5 months ago 12/26/2025 2:00pm EST

re: Eliud Bekele

Eliud Bekele wrote:
runners are clueless wrote:
Is that enough to also maximize anaerobic capacity, though.
I'm thinking that even a hobbyjogger would need a "special block" of training (plus a good taper) to run 5k as fast as absolutely possible.
I have wondered what a "5K special block" would look like under NSA.
Like sirpocs marathon block, it would be unsustainable in the long run, but it should still be low enough on the intensity scale to keep you from being fried come race day.
Maybe we just go a little more aggressive on the ramp rate for 6-8 weeks before the race and then dial it back for the week after when returning to vanilla?
Maybe something as simple as swapping out the 3x10' session with a 25x60" session at 10k pace in one week and a VO2max workout in another (though IMO a true-threshold workout would probably accumulate more training load).
Possibly trimming the long run down as well to lower fatigue, though this might result in a lower training load than vanilla NSA.
Idk, I think most of us agree that vanilla NSA is the best base-building plan for hobbyjoggers, but a special block for the marathon is necessary to excel at that distance, so logically a special block may also be best to squeeze out the last 5% in shorter distances if it's your A-race. For a random parkrun I probably wouldn't bother though as the increased injury risk versus vanilla NSA means it's probably not worth it.

id read bakkens comments on Reddit

he had a lot to say about this that jives nicely with the things he previously wrote articles on

just like at the other end of the spectrum (marathon) youre going to have different concerns about how long you can ‘block’ before you have to get back to basics

5 months ago 12/26/2025 2:05pm EST

re: differentclasswaspeakbritpop

differentclasswaspeakbritpop wrote:
I get that there's a strong anti vo2 sentiment here, and training-wise it's for sensible reasons.
However, all things equal, a higher stroke volume, and/or a more elastic heart, and thereby higher amount of O2 delivered to the working muscles, will translate into improved aerobic performance in a given person.
This is different from saying do classic vo2max work, mind
Also garden variety endurance work will also induce adaptations in the heart, which accounts for some performance improvements. So it's not only about peripheral adaptations.
So stroke volume is very clearly a constraint.

Yeah, there does seem to be a strong desire here to throw the baby out the bathwater.

As you point out, though, recognizing the established importance of VO2max isn't the same as advocating training to specifically try to improve it.

5 months ago 12/26/2025 2:12pm EST

re: shirtboy2022

theres also Almgrens insights from his approach the past couple years

between what Bakken and Almgren added, i think there’s a lot to apply to 5k racing especially Almgrens use of of the 400 workout

as we know the 400 workout has pluses and minuses (also, i would only be doing it on a track or cinder, not tarmac/road) but there’s no doubt its in line with the spirit of the system and is the most specific work for 5k/10k

i think Almgren said before one of his big 10s his last 3/4 workouts were some iteration of 400s

bakken mentioned a short block of 200s, 400s, 1000s, different distance done each week for 6 weeks, but was also careful to mention once youre in that phase your threshold can quickly fall apart (i think weve all experienced that in some fashion)

5 months ago 12/26/2025 2:20pm EST

re: runners are clueless

runners are clueless wrote:
differentclasswaspeakbritpop wrote:
I get that there's a strong anti vo2 sentiment here, and training-wise it's for sensible reasons.
However, all things equal, a higher stroke volume, and/or a more elastic heart, and thereby higher amount of O2 delivered to the working muscles, will translate into improved aerobic performance in a given person.
This is different from saying do classic vo2max work, mind
Also garden variety endurance work will also induce adaptations in the heart, which accounts for some performance improvements. So it's not only about peripheral adaptations.
So stroke volume is very clearly a constraint.
Yeah, there does seem to be a strong desire here to throw the baby out the bathwater.
As you point out, though, recognizing the established importance of VO2max isn't the same as advocating training to specifically try to improve it.

i think the strong desire here is to point out that most ppls limiters are not their VO2 or ‘speed’ which i think is 100% the right posture to have especially for non elites

i think you really need very good evidence to support the notion that youve maxed out your fractional utilization long before youre trying to pull that ceiling up

5 months ago 12/26/2025 2:31pm EST

re: runners are clueless

runners are clueless wrote:
differentclasswaspeakbritpop wrote:
I get that there's a strong anti vo2 sentiment here, and training-wise it's for sensible reasons.
However, all things equal, a higher stroke volume, and/or a more elastic heart, and thereby higher amount of O2 delivered to the working muscles, will translate into improved aerobic performance in a given person.
This is different from saying do classic vo2max work, mind
Also garden variety endurance work will also induce adaptations in the heart, which accounts for some performance improvements. So it's not only about peripheral adaptations.
So stroke volume is very clearly a constraint.
Yeah, there does seem to be a strong desire here to throw the baby out the bathwater.
As you point out, though, recognizing the established importance of VO2max isn't the same as advocating training to specifically try to improve it.

Just do a parkrun semi regularly and you get all the vo2max you need, not need to add specific sessions, it’s not like these are true races, just free time trials you can jump in when you feel like it

5 months ago 12/26/2025 2:40pm EST

re: differentclasswaspeakbritpop

differentclasswaspeakbritpop wrote:
I get that there's a strong anti vo2 sentiment here, and training-wise it's for sensible reasons.
However, all things equal, a higher stroke volume, and/or a more elastic heart, and thereby higher amount of O2 delivered to the working muscles, will translate into improved aerobic performance in a given person.
This is different from saying do classic vo2max work, mind
Also garden variety endurance work will also induce adaptations in the heart, which accounts for some performance improvements. So it's not only about peripheral adaptations.
So stroke volume is very clearly a constraint.

Not if other parts of the system is lagging severely behind.

5 months ago 12/26/2025 3:30pm EST

re: finally its happened!

finally its happened! wrote:
The Magic Coach J.S wrote:
Well, I can't say I belittle the work of runners have improved by this tweak of the Norwegian double thresholds . I'm happy for you! 🙏🖐😃🧙‍♂️ But I'm convinced these guys had very poor training and didn't have a clue how to perfectly train with a mix of VO2max and LT 2 in their weeks before they jumped on the NSM. And the 'Godfather' had already a very high endurance engine from subelite cycling and some critics pointed out that he sometimes ran maxVO2 and LT2 thresholds as well when suposed to run subthresholds.
Some guys before in the thread asked the critics for a better method on low mileage giving faster and sustained improvement and now I have partly given it here with the Dancan System of mine. It's absolutely impossible to reach one's optimum best possible running results without faster training paces than subthresholds 3 times per week. That's a fact, and I can say with 100% sureness for every runner has improved with this NSA method I had improved every one of them atleast as fast in shorter time. Yes, I know , you will downvote me because I say against the majority here, but there are only a few here with my longtime experience of running testing out myself in practise the most famous methods in history as a national elite runner and now last 10 years successful coaching ( really successful even if some stalkers here want to twist that claim) .I'm as I say happy for the guys have improved with the NSM , but you should never believe this is the the very best low mileage method ever....
Coach J.S , Swedish pro online running coach . 🇸🇪🧙‍♂️🇸🇪
Having seen huge gains as an older runner using NSM, it's finally happened. Jan is finally here and made the comment I almost knew was going to happen. That any success of NSM is down to poor training before.
I had a coach. I was hit with what I consider a pretty intense schedule, quite vo2 heavy and a day off. I found this coach on Facebook. It worked very well, for maybe 5-6 weeks, I actually felt decent, then quite quickly, it tailed off. Felt quite burned out even with the day off. Coach was telling me "this is normal." Didn't really make any progress, just another textbook 'boom and bust ' cycle.
That coach.....was Jan!!! You couldn't write it. Since then I've done about 15 months of NSM and taken 97 seconds off my lifetime 5K and topped it up with my first ever sub 2:45 marathon.
So yes, maybe it's true I didn't have a clue how to train vo2 sessions, due to your guidance! You cannot make this up. It's, beautiful.
P.s I'm sure Jan will deny all this. That's how he works. I was one of the posters concerned on the big Jan megathread a while back, who said how Jan had contacted me on 'runners love running' page i seem to remember it was, on Facebook.
Red flags for me was when I googled him, found the Letsrun thread and then it turned out he was claiming to coach a girl called "Emma" running remarkable times, who quite obviously turned out to be a high school boy or college guy. You only had to Google this name and it came up with a fake Facebook profile that was clearly a catfish and within about 2 minutes you could trace it back to this kid.
I asked him about this and he blocked me on Facebook almost immediately.
As ever, the 'everyone is out to get me' will be used by Jan. He has stalkers, all the rest. If I get all this from you Jan, I'll probably just end up going on the NSM Reddit group and dump all the messages and screenshots there. Although, you will still work out a way to "deny" this. Or perhaps you never coached me, like all the other people who have criticism of you , then gets claimed. Yet success stories, people you might have spoken to once, get claimed as 'disciples' of DANCAN, even though they have never got any recognition of even having heard of you.
I wish you all the best Jan, your enthusiasm for running is actually unparalleled and it actually is the attitute a good coach should have. But you cannot take criticism, you don't think outside of the narrow box and framework you believe in and honestly? I find you a little strange, even on direct messaging. You are no doubt a compulsive liar, which is a shame for a man of your age. It's not a good look.
Jan, I wish you well and hope you had a good Christmas, I think tou have some issues but maybe deep down you just wanted to be loved and respected, so it's hard to wish I'll of you. I do, however, wish you would get some help.
Sirpoc, by the way, congratulations on the book. Very, very good and informative, something that will be up there as a modern classic or running must have. Even if you aren't 100% sold on NSM, there's something in there for everyone to learn. It's great having a somewhat outsiders perspective of this strange sport we call running.
To the thread, thank you. I learned a lot in all my time reading here. This is as good as Letsrun gets, even if the thread can be frustrating at times (maybe Alfie has come around to Chinese shoes?!).

never thought I'd say this but the wizard is worse than lexel, coggan and even Nick, although that's close to call. If what you're saying is true he is a con man. Nick may feel just jealous of NSM and its results but he at least keeps it to just "I don't think sirpoc's training works."

Prior to this I thought Wizard just had wrong training and was being pushy about using non-NSM training...but this is serious.

5 months ago 12/26/2025 3:47pm EST

re: roulette wheel1111

roulette wheel1111 wrote:
never thought I'd say this but the wizard is worse than lexel, coggan and even Nick, although that's close to call. If what you're saying is true he is a con man. Nick may feel just jealous of NSM and its results but he at least keeps it to just "I don't think sirpoc's training works."
Prior to this I thought Wizard just had wrong training and was being pushy about using non-NSM training...but this is serious.

The fact he ignored the comment, pretty much means it's true. When he's confronted with facts he just ignores. It all adds up, he's done all these things before and the 'Emma' situation was really a catfish. Still not clear if Jan himself got duped, taste of his own medicine or that he was deliberately misleading folks. Guy is legit probably psycho. Used to be a school teacher which is kinda terrifying to me.

A lot of people who are grifters and pulling the wool over people's eyes are rattled by this thread and concept. Makes it harder for people to sell mirscles or snake oil to hobby joggers. Luckily I think most people in a thread like this are probably not gonna fall for it. But sadly, people like Jan do hook people in.

This thread is almost the opposite of miracles. Smarter training, hard work, a clear philosophy and a lot of patience required. But that doesn't sell for grifters like Jan or others.

5 months ago 12/26/2025 3:57pm EST

re: shirtboy2022

shirtboy2022 wrote:
i think the strong desire here is to point out that most ppls limiters are not their VO2 or ‘speed’ which i think is 100% the right posture to have especially for non elites
i think you really need very good evidence to support the notion that youve maxed out your fractional utilization long before youre trying to pull that ceiling up

Yeah this. I almost fell into this trap. I had a couple of slow months in may/June and thought that meant the time had come to stop spamming sub t. 2 month was no evidence, really, you can't read much into it. 6 months since having decided to stick to sub t gains have been absolutely huge. You almost have to hold your nerve and go long haul. People are way over valuing speed here, or valuing it far too early into the equation.

The biggest mistake I see people make is trying to mix and match. Honestly, if you are still clearly improving on NSM vanilla, ride it out for as long as you can and cash in. Worry about the rest later or when you need to, it's crazy to change it up if there are consistent improvements still.

5 months ago 12/26/2025 4:14pm EST

re: runners are clueless

runners are clueless wrote:
Charlesvdw wrote:
The study is looking at cardiac adaptations. This is an obsolete view. Running performance is not limited by stroke volume or myocardial contractility.
What has to be improved is mitochondrial function in our leg muscles.
It's not about the heart, it's about the mitochondria !
It's actually about both.
VO2max sets the upper limit of aerobic performance, and what sets those with a higher VO2max apart is a greater SV.
To take full advantage of that capacity, though, the muscles also need to highly trained.
Based on the success many seem to have doing lots of "subT" intervals, it appears that many hobbyjoggers have failed to maximize the peripheral adaptations to training.

One of the very best comments in the thread. And it hurts deep to the NSM people to read it. But they won't admit of course.

5 months ago 12/26/2025 4:23pm EST

re: I have a coach for a running club

I have a coach for a running club wrote:
Just do a parkrun semi regularly and you get all the vo2max you need, not need to add specific sessions, it’s not like these are true races, just free time trials you can jump in when you feel like it

. . . none of which changes the fact that VO2max sets the upper limit to performance, with the primary difference between individuals with higher or lower values being their SV.

5 months ago 12/26/2025 4:38pm EST

re: runners are clueless

runners are clueless wrote:
I have a coach for a running club wrote:
Just do a parkrun semi regularly and you get all the vo2max you need, not need to add specific sessions, it’s not like these are true races, just free time trials you can jump in when you feel like it
. . . none of which changes the fact that VO2max sets the upper limit to performance, with the primary difference between individuals with higher or lower values being their SV.

yeah and until you are absolutely sure that youre operating at 92-94% of that for threshold, waste of time to focus on it directly

that’s what the pushback has always been, better performance is being driven bottom up not top down. having a higher vo2 max is a ‘nice to have’ but not essential, and also excludes the fact that your vo2 max will improve doing sub T, all ppl are really quibbling about is the RATE at which it will improve

many ppl have already used the top down approach and that’s why they’re here

a lot of motivated ppl around here, you tell them to focus on vo2 and they will run with that

5 months ago 12/26/2025 4:40pm EST

re: runners are clueless

runners are clueless wrote:
I have a coach for a running club wrote:
Just do a parkrun semi regularly and you get all the vo2max you need, not need to add specific sessions, it’s not like these are true races, just free time trials you can jump in when you feel like it
. . . none of which changes the fact that VO2max sets the upper limit to performance, with the primary difference between individuals with higher or lower values being their SV.

And the roof sets the upper limit of a house, but who cares raising it another floor if the only liveable place is the basement.

5 months ago 12/26/2025 4:41pm EST

re: runners are clueless

runners are clueless wrote:
shirtboy2022 wrote:
or just do a race
that was the initial inception of all of this early on
if youre doing a 5k race every 3-4 weeks, good to go
Is that enough to also maximize anaerobic capacity, though.
I'm thinking that even a hobbyjogger would need a "special block" of training (plus a good taper) to run 5k as fast as absolutely possible.

Of course you are 100% right in that thought. But try to convince a NSM runner of that is of course without possibility.

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