The only one look stupid with this your comment is you. It's very clear your 5 k pb 15: 32 is very bad relative your threshold . This happens when you only train NSM sub threshold and no faster maxVO2.🤔😉🧙♂️
Jan this doesn't make any sense, at all and is the ramblings of someone who doesn't understand subthreshold training.
I also test lactate. I've also trained like this to get from 18:22 to 16:13. I've been training 9 years previously and posted a lot of my thoughts here and Reddit previously.
I can run 3 min repeats at about 3:26-27 /km and be about 0.5-1 mmol under my LT2 which sits at about 3.4. Again, this is also proportionally probably faster than sirpoc or at least equal.
So there's absolutely no way you can make the claims you do, with zero evidence and really just makes you look silly. For sirpoc himself, 3:11/km average from the session discussed, is probably around 60 minute pace where he is at the moment. Even 3:09/km (using your claim as the example) is probably around 10 mile pace. If he can't run that in 3 min blocks with a minute rest, and keep lactate below 4.0 mmol (which is his LT2. I would be really surprised. If anyone also runs this session and thinks it is above 5-6 RPE.
The only thing that really matters is that this training has shifted my lactate profile to the right , pushed it up from below and now I can run at a faster given velocity . That's basically all training is. There's nothing special about what my threshold or vo2 max is. I've also ran a 4:40 mile recently.
Listen carefully, I should say this only once: The only way to get rid of Jan Stenson, and trolls in general, is to ignore their posts. Do not start an argument with them. You can't make them change their mind, or make them go away, by arguing with them. They want to start an inflamed argument and in the case of Stenson, make people buy his online coaching. Every time you answer him you are doing him a favor, and in his mind he is thinking: "haha, I caught those fools in my trap again!"
Jan this doesn't make any sense, at all and is the ramblings of someone who doesn't understand subthreshold training.
I also test lactate. I've also trained like this to get from 18:22 to 16:13. I've been training 9 years previously and posted a lot of my thoughts here and Reddit previously.
I can run 3 min repeats at about 3:26-27 /km and be about 0.5-1 mmol under my LT2 which sits at about 3.4. Again, this is also proportionally probably faster than sirpoc or at least equal.
So there's absolutely no way you can make the claims you do, with zero evidence and really just makes you look silly. For sirpoc himself, 3:11/km average from the session discussed, is probably around 60 minute pace where he is at the moment. Even 3:09/km (using your claim as the example) is probably around 10 mile pace. If he can't run that in 3 min blocks with a minute rest, and keep lactate below 4.0 mmol (which is his LT2. I would be really surprised. If anyone also runs this session and thinks it is above 5-6 RPE.
The only thing that really matters is that this training has shifted my lactate profile to the right , pushed it up from below and now I can run at a faster given velocity . That's basically all training is. There's nothing special about what my threshold or vo2 max is. I've also ran a 4:40 mile recently.
To clarify for Jan, because he isn't the sharpest took, I've been training 15 months like this, 9 years overall. 7 years of training suspiciously like you suggest, basic cookie cutter vo2 heavy programs, got me to the 18. Dropping every shred of vo2 max work, got me from 18 to 16:13 in 15 months.
You don't seem to be the sharpest took man..😉 " 7 years of training suspiciously like you suggest, basic cookie cutter vo2 heavy programs, got me to the 18. Dropping every shred of vo2 max work, got me from 18 to 16:13 in 15 months."
In this your comment you fall by your own hand. 😉 Who is talking about ' cookie cutter vo2 heavy programs ' to be the solution of how to proper effective train to improve?? Not me anyway.....you just with this comment underlines what I keep trying to explain to the less knowledgeable vast majority of the NSM runners you didn't know how to proper train with perfect amount of vo2 before you jumped on the NSM.
Jan this doesn't make any sense, at all and is the ramblings of someone who doesn't understand subthreshold training.
I also test lactate.
Listen carefully, I should say this only once: The only way to get rid of Jan Stenson, and trolls in general, is to ignore their posts. Do not start an argument with them. You can't make them change their mind, or make them go away, by arguing with them. They want to start an inflamed argument and in the case of Stenson, make people buy his online coaching. Every time you answer him you are doing him a favor, and in his mind he is thinking: "haha, I caught those fools in my trap again!"
Don't listen to ' Steffe!!' . 😉 He is one of the few stalkers have been ' follow' me since I started here at LRC ten years ago.
I'm not here at the NSM thread thinking I could recruit new runners to my online coaching. I'm here because I love to discuss training and to help runners all over the world to improve to their highest potential.
I know I will of course be downvoted heavy.....but that's not a problem to me. 😉 It's a situation like e.g few Inter supporters would sit at a grandstand part surrounded by Milan supporters in a football ( soccer) match derby. 🤣🤣🤣
You don't seem to be the sharpest took man..😉 " 7 years of training suspiciously like you suggest, basic cookie cutter vo2 heavy programs, got me to the 18. Dropping every shred of vo2 max work, got me from 18 to 16:13 in 15 months."
In this your comment you fall by your own hand. 😉 Who is talking about ' cookie cutter vo2 heavy programs ' to be the solution of how to proper effective train to improve?? Not me anyway.....you just with this comment underlines what I keep trying to explain to the less knowledgeable vast majority of the NSM runners you didn't know how to proper train with perfect amount of vo2 before you jumped on the NSM.
Ah yes, the coach I had in 2018 didn't know what he's doing with vo2 max workouts. He only coached an olympic medalist and is a top respected online coach. You know, even he has realised in more recent times, hitting hard sessions for hobby jogging is often detrimental and they probably need almost infinite base training. Even the top coaches who have worked with elites, can learn it's actually different at this level.
But of course, you know more, as ever. Even though you have no grast whatsoever as to what Subthreshold is.
This thread has now probably been your most embarrassing performance, to date. Considering some of your content in the past, that's impressive!
Had a bit of time this Christmas day to read the nsm book. What an excellent read so far. Well done for getting this put together. Honestly, this will stand the test of time for a while!
Jan my man, you have really outdone yourself this time, with your lack of knowledge about training. A pretty incredible display of incompetence from yourself.
As someone pointed out, what do you mean LT2 pace? Are you serious? Do you think if you run Daniel's classic threshold pace for 3 minutes and then have a minute rest, your lactate rises about above your actual second lactate turn point phisiological marker is?
Have only a question to offer. 46m, lifelong jogger but nothing serious since school (30 years). Full-on boom and bust type of guy. Typically around 20-25min 5k shape, down to 18:xx on a good boom. Got back from injury, and into NSA a few weeks ago with promising early signs.
My goal is to go back see how close I can get to my 800m time. Idea is to use some of NSA but add some short faster reps with looong breaks to keep the lactate low. Am on the following schedule now:
Mon: sprinting (Tony Holler Atomic Speed Workout) and moderate lifting Tue: easy Wed: 4x 1500 sub-t + 6x 1' uphill on 3' walkdown Thu: easy Fri: 6x 1000 sub-t + 8x 200 on 3' jog Sat: easy Sun: 10k jog + 3x 2000 sub-t
Probably heresy for the purists, but been experimenting on this for 2-3 weeks and it feels great. Legs itching to get back out to run every day and day after workouts HR vs pace on easy is really good.
Whatchall thinkin?
Looks fun! Keep running your experiment and let us know how it goes. since you’re going a different route than NSM that’s going to have some challenging mechanical load demands, how are you going to manage that to avoid staying in your boom/bust injury cycle?
You don't seem to be the sharpest took man..😉 " 7 years of training suspiciously like you suggest, basic cookie cutter vo2 heavy programs, got me to the 18. Dropping every shred of vo2 max work, got me from 18 to 16:13 in 15 months."
In this your comment you fall by your own hand. 😉 Who is talking about ' cookie cutter vo2 heavy programs ' to be the solution of how to proper effective train to improve?? Not me anyway.....you just with this comment underlines what I keep trying to explain to the less knowledgeable vast majority of the NSM runners you didn't know how to proper train with perfect amount of vo2 before you jumped on the NSM.
Ah yes, the coach I had in 2018 didn't know what he's doing with vo2 max workouts. He only coached an olympic medalist and is a top respected online coach. You know, even he has realised in more recent times, hitting hard sessions for hobby jogging is often detrimental and they probably need almost infinite base training. Even the top coaches who have worked with elites, can learn it's actually different at this level.
But of course, you know more, as ever. Even though you have no grast whatsoever as to what Subthreshold is.
This thread has now probably been your most embarrassing performance, to date. Considering some of your content in the past, that's impressive!
Who is talking about hitting hard sessions regardless being a top elite or hobby jogger? Not me anyway.....
I just advocate there is a need of faster paces than sub threshold to improve individual maximal at whatever level of runner. Some of you talk about hobby joggers would be some kind of aliens with a completely different biological system compared to elites.I hope you understand now this isn't the case?
I have never got the problem your Olympic medalist coach had coaching hobby joggers to perfection.
Who is talking about hitting hard sessions regardless being a top elite or hobby jogger? Not me anyway.....
I just advocate there is a need of faster paces than sub threshold to improve individual maximal at whatever level of runner. Some of you talk about hobby joggers would be some kind of aliens with a completely different biological system compared to elites.I hope you understand now this isn't the case?
I have never got the problem your Olympic medalist coach had coaching hobby joggers to perfection.
Jan what do you mean by sub threshold paces? There is a wide range of paces and some of them are quite fast, as has been pointed out.
If you agree you don't need to hit hard sessions, then you basically have described NSM. Maximising the aggregate of load, spread over a long period of time.
I really, really don't think you understand any of this and just completely seem to be ignoring what is being said to you.
Looks fun! Keep running your experiment and let us know how it goes. since you’re going a different route than NSM that’s going to have some challenging mechanical load demands, how are you going to manage that to avoid staying in your boom/bust injury cycle?
Had been going with funnel progression til now. Hillreps to 200s to 400s to 1000s on the fast side (mostly progression runs on the aerobic support side). Typically first signs of problems would set in on overeager 1000s, sometimes paired with excessive long runs.
Now I’m not going beyond 10mi, taking long breaks on the fast reps and adding some lifting (anyway recommended for general health on the wrong side of 40). Details on managing load and long runs in the book really resonated.
Got a few months until track season but regular 5k until then. Let’s see.
Interesting using walking at EZ pace as a safe add-on to vanilla NSM.
Also, didn't know racewalkers could walk faster than 7:00/mi.?!
Just an FYI - about a month into NSM last summer I was experiencing a lot of fatigue so I thought it might be an idea to just WALK my easy days at normal walking pace (5 kph) instead of run them - I'm in my mid-60s and my thought process was that if the name of the game is Recovery then walking should be better than running. I also thought that the most important workouts were the Sub-T sessions so I concentrated on them and my sub-T sessions steadily got faster for the same relative effort and the fatigue was more manageable.
But It didn't work - races at the end of the summer showed my actual race times went backward - not by a lot but definitely trending in the wrong direction.
After two such sub par races I switched back to running all my easy days nonstop and 10 weeks later did my first race that showed an actual improvement since I started this training. My thinking now is that running the easy days is FAR more important than I thought it was.
Just thought I would run an update, as I posted a while back and had been slightly disappointed by not making progress. I had come off two relative back to back Daniels builds, so I was struggling to run truly easy i think on my nsm easy days. Lots of comments I took to heart when they were posted, but retrospectively you guys were correct.
I was still at 18:33 as a pb even after 4 months but definitely the easy paces were just too hard. Towards 75% of mhr. I felt tired still. Always
Anyway, I went away and i have done 17 straight weeks of absolutely NSM vanilla. Not had a single day off, finally running about 65% mhr most days for easy. Had no idea where I was at, ran my local Xmas day parkrun today.
Ran 17:47 and I think I had more left in the tank. In fact I know I did, negative splits to the extreme. Haven't ran even remotely close to 3:30-35/km pace in training. But, there it was. Crazy.
Double good day, wife got me the book for Xmas and also having spent a good hour or so flicking through that whilst the kids burn themselves out, love it!
Haopy Christmas everyone, even Jan despite trying to ruin the thread.
And this is what I see in every coaching case of mine since I started 10 years ago. Have had really magical improvements on both high and low mileage . One of the most magic low mileage cases was an Irish guy then age 43 with busy life of family of 2 little kids and a wife and a fulltime shift job working nights every other week and daytime the other weeks. I coached him with my the original version of the Dancan system and only 5 sessions per week with 2 days off for 100% recovery. The week mostly looked like 2 days 50-60 min @ easy steady zone 3 , one specific long run 90min - 120 min @ zone 3 , one maxVO2 interval e.g 12-20 x 400m @ 5 k race pace or 8-13 x 600m @ 5 k race pace and one day lactate threshold interval of 10-16 k ( 6-10 miles) total @ LT2 pace . It was like a magic wizard had cooked a magic brew to him when he lowered his then masters pb 5000m 16:30 down to 15:37 in just 2 months ( !). With the very effective Dancan we don't talk about 6+ months to see very good results. Now you all have an example of a low mileage system that works more effective and fast than the NSM 😉🧙♂️ 🌲🧙♂️🌲🇰🇪😎🇸🇪
Can't wait for your book to come out, Jan. Will be great for you to lay out. In sure it'll be a best seller. Oh wait, there's no basis or evidence to just about anything you've ever said and it'll expose you as a fraud.
Ok I'm messing with you. But considering the book for NSM has been a smash hit and your system is clearly better, why don't you release it to the world? Think of all the good you could do with your training plans , philosophy and opening it up to the running market. You'll have the respect of everyone. It's a win win situation for you.
(Waiting for your excuse about how you don't have time, desire, you just enjoy coaching keynans you make worse and stealing poor unsuspecting suckers on Facebook's money for private coaching they could just life from Daniel's second edition).
But anyway, thanks for dropping in Jan. In other news, I have a turd that won't flush. Totally unrelated.
User name of the year!
ive, no BS, laughed in my head many more times than id like you to admit about just how savage this handle was!
But anyway, thanks for dropping in Jan. In other news, I have a turd that won't flush. Totally unrelated.
User name of the year!
ive, no BS, laughed in my head many more times than id like you to admit about just how savage this handle was!
I laughed even more when js gave answers to speech. Something like " Are you sure you weren't drunk and used the sink? " I can't stop laughing, laugh of the day.
Is "DANCAN" a portmanteau of Daniels and Canova by chance?
Yes , DAN- iels and CAN-ova . DANCAN! 😃
I came up with the name when I figured out what to call my training method. It's a mix between five of history's greatest coaches , Canova, Daniels , Gerschler, Stampfl and Lydiard and "laced" with my own specialities.....