And this is what I see in every coaching case of mine since I started 10 years ago. Have had really magical improvements on both high and low mileage . One of the most magic low mileage cases was an Irish guy then age 43 with busy life of family of 2 little kids and a wife and a fulltime shift job working nights every other week and daytime the other weeks. I coached him with my the original version of the Dancan system and only 5 sessions per week with 2 days off for 100% recovery. The week mostly looked like 2 days 50-60 min @ easy steady zone 3 , one specific long run 90min - 120 min @ zone 3 , one maxVO2 interval e.g 12-20 x 400m @ 5 k race pace or 8-13 x 600m @ 5 k race pace and one day lactate threshold interval of 10-16 k ( 6-10 miles) total @ LT2 pace . It was like a magic wizard had cooked a magic brew to him when he lowered his then masters pb 5000m 16:30 down to 15:37 in just 2 months ( !). With the very effective Dancan we don't talk about 6+ months to see very good results. Now you all have an example of a low mileage system that works more effective and fast than the NSM 😉🧙♂️ 🌲🧙♂️🌲🇰🇪😎🇸🇪
Can't wait for your book to come out, Jan. Will be great for you to lay out. In sure it'll be a best seller. Oh wait, there's no basis or evidence to just about anything you've ever said and it'll expose you as a fraud.
Ok I'm messing with you. But considering the book for NSM has been a smash hit and your system is clearly better, why don't you release it to the world? Think of all the good you could do with your training plans , philosophy and opening it up to the running market. You'll have the respect of everyone. It's a win win situation for you.
(Waiting for your excuse about how you don't have time, desire, you just enjoy coaching keynans you make worse and stealing poor unsuspecting suckers on Facebook's money for private coaching they could just life from Daniel's second edition).
But anyway, thanks for dropping in Jan. In other news, I have a turd that won't flush. Totally unrelated.
The evidences are still there in my longtime correspondence / chatting with my many hundreds of successful and happy coaching cases, that you can be sure of)) What I have been through with my the DANCAN SYSTEM for now 10 years is absolutely like a fairytale will be great basis for a script to a bestseller book. But it have to wait for now. Even if a pensioner now I' m busy to coach all my satiesfied runners who contacted me at Instagram, facebook , X and LRC , and not to forget myself aiming for a hailed masters comeback hunting down some records in my agegroup 66-69 .I think I will start a new thread on LRC with that coaching/ training you are all welcomed to follow. And this time I will only answer serious running/ training related questions and never answer my few stalkers like you.))
And this is what I see in every coaching case of mine since I started 10 years ago. Have had really magical improvements on both high and low mileage . One of the most magic low mileage cases was an Irish guy then age 43 with busy life of family of 2 little kids and a wife and a fulltime shift job working nights every other week and daytime the other weeks. I coached him with my the original version of the Dancan system and only 5 sessions per week with 2 days off for 100% recovery. The week mostly looked like 2 days 50-60 min @ easy steady zone 3 , one specific long run 90min - 120 min @ zone 3 , one maxVO2 interval e.g 12-20 x 400m @ 5 k race pace or 8-13 x 600m @ 5 k race pace and one day lactate threshold interval of 10-16 k ( 6-10 miles) total @ LT2 pace . It was like a magic wizard had cooked a magic brew to him when he lowered his then masters pb 5000m 16:30 down to 15:37 in just 2 months ( !). With the very effective Dancan we don't talk about 6+ months to see very good results. Now you all have an example of a low mileage system that works more effective and fast than the NSM 😉🧙♂️
But anyway, thanks for dropping in Jan. In other news, I have a turd that won't flush. Totally unrelated.
Are you sure you weren't drunk and used the sink? 🤣🤣🤣
Totally unrelated but maybe gave some more than me a smile? 🤣
IF this method does not make me faster and IF this method does not have enough speedwork/VO2 and IF this method is not “the answer”, I will still continue to do it.
I appreciate why this forum is obsessed with faster but there is a point when following a miserable plan just to, possibly, get faster is not worth it. That’s where I am and that’s why I’m sticking with this method even if I this is as fast as I get.
IF this method does not make me faster and IF this method does not have enough speedwork/VO2 and IF this method is not “the answer”, I will still continue to do it.
I appreciate why this forum is obsessed with faster but there is a point when following a miserable plan just to, possibly, get faster is not worth it. That’s where I am and that’s why I’m sticking with this method even if I this is as fast as I get.
So you're basically committed to a cult way of thinking ie. exact opposite of the method genesis. Cool.
IF this method does not make me faster and IF this method does not have enough speedwork/VO2 and IF this method is not “the answer”, I will still continue to do it.
I appreciate why this forum is obsessed with faster but there is a point when following a miserable plan just to, possibly, get faster is not worth it. That’s where I am and that’s why I’m sticking with this method even if I this is as fast as I get.
So you're basically committed to a cult way of thinking ie. exact opposite of the method genesis. Cool.
Yeah, I don't think you're doing the system any favours by posting this.
It kind of just adds credence to the people that say NSMers behave like cult members.
So you're basically committed to a cult way of thinking ie. exact opposite of the method genesis. Cool.
I agree with him. I've been running since 1989. By best years are long gone. But running this way is the first time I have felt running itself fits in with my busy life, in probably all those years.
I'm getting worse, as I'm getting older. So I don't really care about performance, I just want it to give me something to stick to and some structure to enjoying the last bit of training I have in me.
I didn't really make any progress for 4 months, but felt good so that was enough for me. Then, surprisingly, I ran my local turkey trot and it was the best time I have managed since 2018. So put me in the camp of holding off decline. Obviously I won't be hitting any PBs! But it will put me in the 'very competitive' category in my masters bracket, for my unfortunately ever advancing years.
I'm just shy of 90,000 lifetime miles and I can only kick myself for wasting most of them on unsustainable training. Yes I have the life miles, but so many of them were spent on boom and bust short term goals and cycles, that there's no doubt I never even came close to reaching the top end of my aerobic development.
Thanks for the book, sirpoc, enjoyable, informative and entertaining read. P.s I don't know if Hard2find is still around, but if you need a deciding vote, it's Johnny Marr who made 'The Smiths'!
Cheers from an even older dog and have a merry Christmas everyone!
IF this method does not make me faster and IF this method does not have enough speedwork/VO2 and IF this method is not “the answer”, I will still continue to do it.
I appreciate why this forum is obsessed with faster but there is a point when following a miserable plan just to, possibly, get faster is not worth it. That’s where I am and that’s why I’m sticking with this method even if I this is as fast as I get.
So you're basically committed to a cult way of thinking ie. exact opposite of the method genesis. Cool.
We are following a guy called JC who helps the (time) poor and (aerobically) needy. If anything it’s a religion…
Yeah, I don't think you're doing the system any favours by posting this.
It kind of just adds credence to the people that say NSMers behave like cult members.
A few (probably the same person) trolling doesn't really say anything for the method. It's far bigger than the letsrun thread. The irony being, the people making cult claims are totally married to the idea of intensity, every single time it comes back to "you need to train harder" or "you need to focus on vo2 max" Brainwashed themselves by methods and coaches, some of whom won't apart and probably belong in a museum. Truly ironic.
A lot of people just want some sustainable training. I have improved. But that wasn't my main focus going into this. I just wanted something that broke my injury and lack of consistency cycle. It's done that. I find more enjoyment. I'm a hobby jogger at the end of the day. I have actually improved beyond my expectations, but this to me was secondary to just getting back out there and enjoying running again. I started back at 5 hours and have slowly ramped up and have never felt better. In the end, the consistency led to the better performance, by default.
He's not the Messiah, he's just a very naughty boy! (In the view of the running establishment/traditionalists , who seem to be have spooked by this thread).
A few (probably the same person) trolling doesn't really say anything for the method. It's far bigger than the letsrun thread. The irony being, the people making cult claims are totally married to the idea of intensity, every single time it comes back to "you need to train harder" or "you need to focus on vo2 max" Brainwashed themselves by methods and coaches, some of whom won't apart and probably belong in a museum. Truly ironic.
A lot of people just want some sustainable training. I have improved. But that wasn't my main focus going into this. I just wanted something that broke my injury and lack of consistency cycle. It's done that. I find more enjoyment. I'm a hobby jogger at the end of the day. I have actually improved beyond my expectations, but this to me was secondary to just getting back out there and enjoying running again. I started back at 5 hours and have slowly ramped up and have never felt better. In the end, the consistency led to the better performance, by default.
This is me as well. I was just happy that I found a way I can run everyday. 7 days over 5-6 feels so much better as well, spreading it over a week rather than forcing it in (I think this is often overlooked, coaches give athletes off days, then squeezing in load to make up for it).
The fact it's made me faster is a byproduct and actually wasn't my main focus going in. I just wanted to run everyday. Not that I'm complaining about the performance gains, they have been great.
Another anecdote: I discovered this thread just by chance in July / August. After reading the first 3 or 4 pages, I knew this training was for me, it just felt like being handed a very simple but profound equation that solves running. I had previously still been improving, the improvements were starting to come at a higher cost, the trade off was fatigue, inability to keep it going, because I'd inevitably go into fatigue and niggle management etc. Before this approach, for 5k I had gone from about 21 to 18:30 in 3 or 4 years, give or take a few injuries here and there. Half marathon from about 1:35 to 1:26.
I had previously increased weekly load to about 80-90km during peaks of training blocks, but then between race tapering, recovery, accumulated fatigue, I always struggled to maintain that kind of mileage and consistency; my running was just a series of peaks and troughs, of pushing hard and trying to recover, a tightrope. I'd been pushing too hard, and had thought that was just an inherent part of training, that I'm not moving forward unless I'm getting a little over cooked in the peak of a block with v02 max sessions etc. It was probably only a matter of time before I stagnated or burned out.
1 or 2 weeks into this training and my legs never felt as fresh. 3 or 4 weeks later and I actually think I was just previously carrying around fatigue the whole time, and had normalised it as a part of training. Previously my easy pace would have between 4:45 - 5:10/km, it always felt conversational, so thought I was all good. But have since brought that down to about 6:00/km. Lower paces were initially a bit of a struggle, and felt heavy and awkward, but after 3 or 4 easy runs, I upped my cadence from 160spm to 170-175 and it just clicked. Few days of running at this - and moderate calf pain that I had been managing the last few months pretty much just disappeared. As well as running too fast, I was over striding.
I had previously read a lot about zone 2 running, and would have always agreed with it in principal, but often wondered why at the same time. For someone like myself, training for races, it didn't make sense to me on its own merit... and a lot of my running would have been zone 2 naturally, without consciously looking to keep it there, obviously I wasn't placing enough emphasis on it. But in the context laid out perfectly in this thread, zone 2 finally makes absolute sense. It just allows a fully maximised training load, whilst keeping fatigue at a minimum. I can now run 3 workouts a week, and do high mileage, but because my easy days are now truly easy, I never go into fatigue or recovery debt. I'm always ready for the next workout. And because of the workouts, I'm never over-reaching.
After 5 months, I'm only starting to see results now, I spent the last few months doing cross country so I couldn't really tell how I was responding. My previous 5k best was 18:20, and I was really struggling to better it. This is now 17:55 and it feels like I've only just scratched the surface. Took a few months to really hone my threshold paces... and whilst the easy pace was initially a bit of a challenge, I think when you get into it, this system is really self regulating - you look forward to running slow, and can't really afford to run any faster. I run about 90-100km a week and maybe about 25k of threshold. I'm probably in the upper limits regarding the weekly time people spend running with this system before moving to doubles. However, as I say, I feel like I have only scratched the surface and can continue to improve while sustaining this load for a few years. Maybe gradually increasing threshold volume from 25km to 30km, and just gradually increasing threshold pace as I improve.
Congrats Sirpoc on a great book, unbelievable what you have achieved here.
This post was edited 6 minutes after it was posted.
of course it's refreshing, you're literally just jogging. lmao
Sorry to burst your bubble, but according to research by (Peter Coe), you get no benefit from running below 55% vo2max (63-70%) and barely any benefits at 60%. (70-75%)
Salazar (who was 16 mins faster than your godfather in old rubber shoes btw) said you're just burning calories running that slow. If I were you, I would keep it at 70% HR and gradually move up to 75%. If you are too tired, then you're either, unfit, or your workouts are too hard.
Here is a genuine question. Can't wait for you to answer.
Are you saying that all the easy running they have done is pointless? Let's take Wigglewaffle, cheetodust and then sirpoc himself.
Are you effectively saying that their only training is 3 Subthreshold sessions a week? If you are, the times they have put up are absolutely remarkable and it probably makes it the greatest pound to pound results to any training, in the history of endurance sports.
I can't tell if you are being serious, but it seems to be what you are saying considering they all run easy days well south of 70% max HR and definitely a lot of days well into tjr territory your research is saying is and i quote you, "pointless".
Another anecdote: I discovered this thread just by chance in July / August. After reading the first 3 or 4 pages, I knew this training was for me, it just felt like being handed a very simple but profound equation that solves running. I had previously still been improving, the improvements were starting to come at a higher cost, the trade off was fatigue, inability to keep it going, because I'd inevitably go into fatigue and niggle management etc. Before this approach, for 5k I had gone from about 21 to 18:30 in 3 or 4 years, give or take a few injuries here and there. Half marathon from about 1:35 to 1:26.
I had previously increased weekly load to about 80-90km during peaks of training blocks, but then between race tapering, recovery, accumulated fatigue, I always struggled to maintain that kind of mileage and consistency; my running was just a series of peaks and troughs, of pushing hard and trying to recover, a tightrope. I'd been pushing too hard, and had thought that was just an inherent part of training, that I'm not moving forward unless I'm getting a little over cooked in the peak of a block with v02 max sessions etc. It was probably only a matter of time before I stagnated or burned out.
1 or 2 weeks into this training and my legs never felt as fresh. 3 or 4 weeks later and I actually think I was just previously carrying around fatigue the whole time, and had normalised it as a part of training. Previously my easy pace would have between 4:45 - 5:10/km, it always felt conversational, so thought I was all good. But have since brought that down to about 6:00/km. Lower paces were initially a bit of a struggle, and felt heavy and awkward, but after 3 or 4 easy runs, I upped my cadence from 160spm to 170-175 and it just clicked. Few days of running at this - and moderate calf pain that I had been managing the last few months pretty much just disappeared. As well as running too fast, I was over striding.
I had previously read a lot about zone 2 running, and would have always agreed with it in principal, but often wondered why at the same time. For someone like myself, training for races, it didn't make sense to me on its own merit... and a lot of my running would have been zone 2 naturally, without consciously looking to keep it there, obviously I wasn't placing enough emphasis on it. But in the context laid out perfectly in this thread, zone 2 finally makes absolute sense. It just allows a fully maximised training load, whilst keeping fatigue at a minimum. I can now run 3 workouts a week, and do high mileage, but because my easy days are now truly easy, I never go into fatigue or recovery debt. I'm always ready for the next workout. And because of the workouts, I'm never over-reaching.
After 5 months, I'm only starting to see results now, I spent the last few months doing cross country so I couldn't really tell how I was responding. My previous 5k best was 18:20, and I was really struggling to better it. This is now 17:55 and it feels like I've only just scratched the surface. Took a few months to really hone my threshold paces... and whilst the easy pace was initially a bit of a challenge, I think when you get into it, this system is really self regulating - you look forward to running slow, and can't really afford to run any faster. I run about 90-100km a week and maybe about 25k of threshold. I'm probably in the upper limits regarding the weekly time people spend running with this system before moving to doubles. However, as I say, I feel like I have only scratched the surface and can continue to improve while sustaining this load for a few years. Maybe gradually increasing threshold volume from 25km to 30km, and just gradually increasing threshold pace as I improve.
Congrats Sirpoc on a great book, unbelievable what you have achieved here.
Great post. Very similar to myself. Seems those of us who are fast to non-runners friends, but slow to runners, seems to take the biggest benefits from this. Just a side note, but seems to be the target audience of those who are getting the most out of this.
Interesting on the cadence. Sirpoc today jogging around 66% max HR and with a cadence of 200 lol
Someone actually posted to him on Strava, they were suggesting his cadence is holding him back. I actually suspect it's the opposite and he probably looks silly, but most likely has insanely good running economy and less likely to pick up injuries.
What RPE do you guys usually aim for during your sets?
The book is basically saying 4-6 RPE. Which seems to be just about everyone who has trained like this experience. If it's outside of that on the upper end, something probably is wrong.
There's no real pattern in my opinion, likes there's not one time, distance etc. that is harder, it just somewhere falls into that on a pretty random basis. In the book he does say (to paraphrase) you are deliberately leaving reps on the table. You could do more if you had to, but you choose not to.
Another anecdote: I discovered this thread just by chance in July / August. After reading the first 3 or 4 pages, I knew this training was for me, it just felt like being handed a very simple but profound equation that solves running. I had previously still been improving, the improvements were starting to come at a higher cost, the trade off was fatigue, inability to keep it going, because I'd inevitably go into fatigue and niggle management etc. Before this approach, for 5k I had gone from about 21 to 18:30 in 3 or 4 years, give or take a few injuries here and there. Half marathon from about 1:35 to 1:26.
I had previously increased weekly load to about 80-90km during peaks of training blocks, but then between race tapering, recovery, accumulated fatigue, I always struggled to maintain that kind of mileage and consistency; my running was just a series of peaks and troughs, of pushing hard and trying to recover, a tightrope. I'd been pushing too hard, and had thought that was just an inherent part of training, that I'm not moving forward unless I'm getting a little over cooked in the peak of a block with v02 max sessions etc. It was probably only a matter of time before I stagnated or burned out.
1 or 2 weeks into this training and my legs never felt as fresh. 3 or 4 weeks later and I actually think I was just previously carrying around fatigue the whole time, and had normalised it as a part of training. Previously my easy pace would have between 4:45 - 5:10/km, it always felt conversational, so thought I was all good. But have since brought that down to about 6:00/km. Lower paces were initially a bit of a struggle, and felt heavy and awkward, but after 3 or 4 easy runs, I upped my cadence from 160spm to 170-175 and it just clicked. Few days of running at this - and moderate calf pain that I had been managing the last few months pretty much just disappeared. As well as running too fast, I was over striding.
I had previously read a lot about zone 2 running, and would have always agreed with it in principal, but often wondered why at the same time. For someone like myself, training for races, it didn't make sense to me on its own merit... and a lot of my running would have been zone 2 naturally, without consciously looking to keep it there, obviously I wasn't placing enough emphasis on it. But in the context laid out perfectly in this thread, zone 2 finally makes absolute sense. It just allows a fully maximised training load, whilst keeping fatigue at a minimum. I can now run 3 workouts a week, and do high mileage, but because my easy days are now truly easy, I never go into fatigue or recovery debt. I'm always ready for the next workout. And because of the workouts, I'm never over-reaching.
After 5 months, I'm only starting to see results now, I spent the last few months doing cross country so I couldn't really tell how I was responding. My previous 5k best was 18:20, and I was really struggling to better it. This is now 17:55 and it feels like I've only just scratched the surface. Took a few months to really hone my threshold paces... and whilst the easy pace was initially a bit of a challenge, I think when you get into it, this system is really self regulating - you look forward to running slow, and can't really afford to run any faster. I run about 90-100km a week and maybe about 25k of threshold. I'm probably in the upper limits regarding the weekly time people spend running with this system before moving to doubles. However, as I say, I feel like I have only scratched the surface and can continue to improve while sustaining this load for a few years. Maybe gradually increasing threshold volume from 25km to 30km, and just gradually increasing threshold pace as I improve.
Congrats Sirpoc on a great book, unbelievable what you have achieved here.
Great post. Very similar to myself. Seems those of us who are fast to non-runners friends, but slow to runners, seems to take the biggest benefits from this. Just a side note, but seems to be the target audience of those who are getting the most out of this.
Interesting on the cadence. Sirpoc today jogging around 66% max HR and with a cadence of 200 lol
Someone actually posted to him on Strava, they were suggesting his cadence is holding him back. I actually suspect it's the opposite and he probably looks silly, but most likely has insanely good running economy and less likely to pick up injuries.
N=1 here but I have noticed my cadence on easy runs has slowly increased since training under NSA. Detrained it's usually around 175 but has since increased to 190 on easy runs and 200 in races. I definitely feel super efficient in easy runs compared with when I started or even a couple months ago.