LYDIARD OR DANIELS?

Sounds right to me as long as there is a pretty long recovery, 200-300 meters if you're doing 100s, less for 50s. And yeah, you do know that you're doing them after a few repeats.

By the way, Hotlanta; I mailed you some Kinesio tape with the instruction today for second-day delivery. You should get it by the end of Friday. If you have any question, send me an e-mail or call me. If it works, let me know--I'll send you some more. Whether you decide to forgo or stick to the plan, let's try EVERYTHING we can first, huh? Good luck!

I would be considered 'weak' on this area, but your description is pretty much right. You don't 'jog' the 'float', you run.

I may have mentioned in the past that John Walker would run this workout for 2 miles and would do it in 8:40 as would Rod Dixon.

Back in 83' when I did that Training with Bill Bailie getting ready for the Masters Champs we ran a session of 1 mile of 50 yard dashes. I don't have detail but I recall that we did not 'mess' around and were around or just under the 5 minute mark for that mile. Remember, Bill was over 50 then.

If you have the aerobic base--critical as has been discussed in the previous 904 posts--then this session comes out pretty close to your 5km pace, maybe a little slower, maybe a little quicker.

Although it's a tough workout by the end, I've always found it much easier mentally than trying to do 2-3km at 5km pace by myself.

Nobby: Domo arigato!

Guys: Nobby is helping me out because I wiped out on a trail last Saturday and cracked two ribs. I don't recommend it.

ok, since this is a thread on lydiard, what book do you recommend someone to buy? his latest one? his earliest?

Lactate production doesn't shut down but continues to rise until it peaks out when do fairly frequent intense sprints, then it (lacate) starts to drop as speed decreases (due to fatigue). Thus, it would appear that buffering is stronger at this point and production is not as high, but this is false because it is the speed that has declined and with it quantities of lactate. Lactate is directly related to carbohydrate burning and hence quantitatively linked to intensity. If speed drops, so does lactate.

I can give an example of this at the other end of the spectrum. I can tell a runner to go for a long run and I will measure your lactates every 3 miles. Over time lactate values will drop gradually. The assumption, which is incorrect, is the buffering of lactate is improving. Truth is, either speed slowed down as one travels many miles, which effects lactate production - i.e. quantity - or there was a shift in fuel (substrate) utilization. If you burn more fat to generate ATP, you use fewer carbs. If you use fewer carbs (glycogen or glucose) you produce less lactate.

A runner can never sprint-float sprint 2 miles on the track and achieve the same time as running at a steady, fast pace. Why? Sprinting and floating in alternation produces far more fatigue due to very high muscular and blood acidosis.

I think the over-riding benefit of surge training (sprint-float-sprints) is multi-faceted: neuromuscular, biochemical, and mental. Changes of paces improves neural control and firing. Changes of paces requires concentration. Surge training for 2 miles on the track is very, very hard to do and it toughens one's mentally. Additionally, physically, it recruits fast twitch fibers and thus demands anaerobic contribution at a high level of output per unit time. It is a very strong stimulus, but if not tempered with overdistance running, plenty of post-speed training cool down running, morning jogs, it can flatten you in a hurry.

One must really know how to coordinate training elements in order to do it well (like Lydiard). One must have plenty of aerobic conditioning in the "bank" to do it well and benefit from it. It also is a strong aerobic stimulus for fast oxidative fibers (fast twitch A fibers) and fast glycoltic (explosive)(fast twitch B) fibers. Through frequent use, fast twitch B fibers can alter their constitution such that they process oxygen to create ATP energy, not just process pyruvate to generate ATP anaerobically. If one doesn't have many of these fibers, their isn't going to be a big improvement with this type of workout as far as biochemical processing of energy is concerned. Thus, if one is a "slow twitch" runner (little natural speed), then an even shorter workout of surge training should be planned. A long surge training session is not advisable for a slow twitch runner, in my opinion. It will work magic for middle distance runners with great natural speed, I have noticed. Tinman

Tinman wrote:

If one doesn't have many of these fibers, their isn't going to be a big improvement with this type of workout as far as biochemical processing of energy is concerned. Thus, if one is a "slow twitch" runner (little natural speed), then an even shorter workout of surge training should be planned. A long surge training session is not advisable for a slow twitch runner, in my opinion. It will work magic for middle distance runners with great natural speed, I have noticed. Tinman

Tinman, could you please expand on this little bit? Would you recommend 2-3miles of sprint-float-sprint for a 800-3000m runner with good natural speed and only, say, 2000m for a 10k-marathon runner with little fast twitch fibers?

My idea was, maybe, to divide this workout into 2 identical repeats of 2000m with 10min recovery. I would think that in this way even the "slow" guy can get solid volume of intensity. What do you think?

Tinman,

thanks for your comments. When I said that the lactate production "shutdown" (and I put it in quotes when I used it the first time) was because, it does not shutdown, it is just that the level of production of lactate drops with the corresponding drop in effort. The result is that the buffering process, which is playing catch up to the lactate being produced, continues to stimulate buffering the lactate in the blood. The result should be that you are able to do a workout in less than 12 minutes (read approximately your 2 mile time, as you do 8 laps of sprint 50 m, cruise 50 m) that will have a positive impact on your ability to race anaerobically.

I do not use this workout for runners who are NOT targetting racing distances of 5 km or less unless they are racing at faster (sub 5:00 pace) speeds.

Glenn

Ronin:

Let me give you an off-the top answer. A male runner who has trained extensively for years, like you, who is able tun 52 seconds or faster for the 400m could do 2-3 miles worth of 50-50s or 100-100s once every 10 days, provided a very good aerobic conditioning background was previously undertaken. I think about 4 of these workouts is all that is neede to reach full adaptation. A male who runs 53-55 seconds for the 400m can run 1.5-2 miles of surges every 10-14 days. A male who can run 400m in 56 seconds or slower should probably limit this workout to around 1 miles worth of surges, at most, every 14 days. Just an opinion based upon observation. Tinman at

runfastcoach@gmail.com

My Greater Boston Guys team is going to run sharpeners tonight in anticipation of the coming x-c championships. It is terrifically windy and dark here so it won't be fun or measured. I expect that the faster guys will last longer than the slower ones. But not much happens in just one workout. I'll let you know if anyone throws up.

Our 800 guy who is in "Alpha" phase will want to do this but I will not let him. The 10 km cross-country is heroic enough for him.

Tom

Tom, what is "alpha pase".

runner39 wrote:

Tom, what is "alpha phase".

That is what Coach Squires calls the base mileage or aerobic running. It is fun to say "Alpha" for the training that comes first.

(being I am old I guess I am approaching "Omega."

The boys ran the "Sharpeners" tognight but complained that it wasn't enough volume, except for the guy who actually ran it hard enough. The others guys didn't believe we would run such a brief workout. Well, we'll see how the USATFNE champs go on Sunday. Maybe they can get third behind BAA and Reebok Boston.

Tom

Tom, just curious...were these sharpeners specifically for Franklin Park on Sunday or do you have a team race next weekend you're shooting for?

This response is a bit late now, but when I met Arthur we discussed sharpening, race prep and so on. He told me that it was possible to "race yourself fit" and not so ANY anaerobic work if you'd done your basework. He thought you'd get better results if you did the whole cycle, but that you'd do quite well on basework and racing.

For my part, that worked better than anything I'd ever done.

mikeinboston wrote:

Tom, just curious...were these sharpeners specifically for Franklin Park on Sunday or do you have a team race next weekend you're shooting for?

We plan to go to Franklin Park on Sunday then the Nationals on Nov 19 so I wanted to introduce the sharpener idea now so they could learn how to use it before the 19th.

There are many other ways to do this "sharpening" thing.

Tom

Derderian wrote:

My Greater Boston Guys team is going to run sharpeners tonight in anticipation of the coming x-c championships. It is terrifically windy and dark here so it won't be fun or measured. I expect that the faster guys will last longer than the slower ones. But not much happens in just one workout. I'll let you know if anyone throws up.

Our 800 guy who is in "Alpha" phase will want to do this but I will not let him. The 10 km cross-country is heroic enough for him.

Tom

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Let us know how it turns out for your runners. Take care,

Tinman

Tinman,

thanks for the reply. Please also note that I am not able to run that fast anymore since I switched to longer distances as my primary goal. <52s 400m speed is long gone.

:)

We will see how the things turn around (if at all?) after I complete the 6-week hill circuits phase. I will let you know, if anybody is interested. So far (3weeks in), I have noticed only that my calves are much bigger than before, or at least they appear to be. I am also not sore anymore the day after bounding and sprinting... I cannot wait for the track training (for the first time in my life- I used to hate it).

I have a question that I hope is elementary. I welcome responses from any and all with thoughts on the issue.

I'm fairly new to running. I've been at it for about a year, but most all of that time has been spent doing just enough jogging to ease myself back into reasonable shape after about a decade of sloth. I have been running between 200-250 minutes per week for the past several months - Nothing structured, just running as I feel on the particular day.

I have noticed gradual improvements in my physical condition over the course of the past year and have really come to enjoy running. I would like to become more serious about running in an effort to see how good of a runner I can become. I have read as much as I have at my disposal about different approaches to training, and have decided to follow Lydiard's method. I've read "Running to the Top", all that I can find on the internet, and most all of this thread, and I feel like I'm fairly well-acquainted with Lydiard training.

My question is this: what is the best way for someone in my position (me, specifically) to get started with Lydiard training. I've thought of a couple of options. First, I could spend about 6 months just increasing my mileage with regular aerobic running and then get started with a regular training cycle to prepare for a race next fall. Second, I could go ahead and get started with a training cycle in preparation for a race this spring. Of the two, I'm inclined to go with the second, but my concern is that I would be better off running more miles than training off a 30-35 mile per week base (I assume this is about what I could safely handle for this season).

Sorry to ramble. Any suggestions will be appreciated.