Modifying the Norwegian approach to lower mileage

That is an inspiring improvement. Can I ask what your 5K time was at the outset of starting NSM, and what sort of weekly mileage?

Well,

the science is settled, then. Thanks for clearing that up with your case study of one.

Haha, only in the NSA thread would setting a lifetime PR at age 50 then knocking an extra 30 seconds off it (which is an age graded 80+%, aka roughly national caliber) be considered "Nothing too remarkable". You're selling yourself short. Well done on staying healthy and making that happen. Inspiring.

I can't remember whether I read a paper on this, or just saw it suggested, but I've started doing 10-12 minutes of threshold effort before races, and it makes a big difference in performance (in a positive way).

I think the best warmup is harder than you'd think. for a 5k I think something like 5 minute jog, dynamic stretches, 10 minute jog, 0.5 mile threshold, 2-3x 30s at 5k pace is best. then change shoes / spikes and do a few strides. Probably start roughly 55 minutes out.

probably in this thread

Guys complaining all the time his legs feel trashed and we all see he looks really tired.
Not really rocket science right? Combined with being sick 5x in a year...maybe look at your lifestyle?

Interestingly enough .. If you follow the running lore that 10% a week is ok then you can do that in 4 weeks

I guess getting runners injured is an ingrained part of the industry/lifestyle (shrugs shoulders)

Running lore is wrong. It's not until I started training like this I realised that. Just about all running plans are periodized or they are some sort of fixed block. It's also very hard to sell coaching plans if you say "stick with me we will then see how you progressed in a year". Nobody would buy these plans. You would effectively be changing or attacking the whole industry which prays on hobby joggers to think they need a coach. I've had many and they've usually all over sold what I'm getting, bar a couple of exceptions.

This forces things, or at least slightly rushes things, beyond what a lot of people can absorb and catch up with. They will work if you don't get sucked into a hole, but who can survive is guesswork. I've survived some and performed OK, others have just put me so deep into a hole i then have to reset. The reset part is crucial. OK you don't becoming a beginner again, but you have slid back down the performance curve and have to semi start over. Rinse. Repeat.

Especially hobby joggers. I know it keeps coming back to this, but the recovery and management of fatigue is wildly different to someone who can lay down for 6 hours a day after their training like an elite. Hence, the things they do are largely irrelevant to the vast majority of us.

You'll see people who have trained for a long time - decades in my case - suddenly realise what a fool they have been. Things like ramping up fast to a peak race in 12-16 weeks, then starting all over again is about the worst thing the majority of us can do. Most training is similar, but the discipline of easy running, coupled with controlling the intensity of workouts and the slow ramp rate - these things combined - is what makes this training work. Change any of these factors, it likely falls apart, or at least the strike rate of success diminishes.

Having tried some of the suggestions Magness suggested (hey it's Magness, so would have been silly not to!), even after a month, I can tell you it strays far beyond the kind of balance and sustainability the vanilla method provides. For me, it's just not an option. It becomes something different. It's probably still good training, but you are adding in some risk, seemingly for little reward in the grand scheme of thing. I certainly didn't feel I could do this forever, with a few of the changes Steve spoke about.

Anyway sorry for the long post, but some good posts lately and thought I would chip in, as the classic "long time listener".

P.s if anyone hasn't bought the book, it's magnificent. It's up there with the absolute best and I have a three shelf fulls of them. The pacing chapter alone will improve a huge amount of people, even if you don't use the training theory covered (although, if you are a HJ, I don't see why you wouldn't).

That seems like quite a lot of work before a race. Was it trial and error or did you just give 10 minutes a go one day?

Update on this from me from parkrun:
Ran 10mins easy then 2x3mins w/ 60 secs walk - then about 10mins hanging about before parkrun. I was definitely warmed up and ready to go - straight into the paces and no feeling of sluggishness. Going to keep this warm up included for the future. It worked well for a course recce too.

Great post. Great sharing. I think this post hits a lot of marks and a reminder that there are no miracles here. Also that once you tip the carefully balanced philosophy even a little, you lose what it is good at. Repeatability, sustainability and the right balance of fatigue management.

A key of the excellent book is how this was all planned out in detail to find that range of intensity versus recovery that you could keep doing and doing, this outrunning the classic training hobby joggers are usually prescribed.

Bakken used to do this before races. I remember him telling about how El G looked at him like "can someone tell this guy that the race hasn't started yet".

Physiology of Endurance Running podcast did an episode on this. July 15, 2024. Here are notes I took on it.

Basically they discussed elites before track races throw in some speed stuff to prime Vo2 kinetics, so O2 levels are higher when the race starts. If the system is primed you'll conserve more of your system (Sorry I can't remember the name of the system) you use during the finishing sprint, so you'll be able to sprint faster at the end. If your system isn't primed, you have to use more of your sprint system the first K or so & will feel a little sluggish at first like you do in the first rep of subt workouts.

This was more olympian 800/1500/5k racers looking to shave 1-2 sec. Study they looked at (which they admitted was sketchy) found up to a 5 sec gain over 5k.

They recommend starting warm up 20 min from race start & finishing within a couple min of gun going off. No need for strides or any other stuff. Just stand around for last few min before race while sweating. They recommended starting with 3 min work and work up to 4/5/6 min of half marathon to 10k pace work. This is not recommended for anything above L2 though, so they said it's more for 800 to 5k.

I tried it 3x this summer for 5ks & didn't notice a big change, but it was summer & very hot. I may have felt a little better the first mile, maybe. I kind of like feeling a little sluggish first mile as a safe guard though so I don't go out too fast. As more of a time trialler with this system, I don't really care about my finishing sprint. Lol, I don't even have a finishing sprint at my age. More of a last 1/2 mile pickup. I did throw in 3 min at 15k pace before Turkey Trot that was 20F to warm up better & will do it again for a winter 5k coming up. Will probably throw in 2x3 min reps for a mile race outdoors in Feb. That's where I think this warm up is really needed. 800/mile races. Other than that, for warmer races I'll stick to the basic 10 min at easy pace, or a progressive pace warm up

I did 1 x 3 minutes before a 5k solo TT at the weekend. I don’t have much to compare it to but it seem OK. I think 2 x 3 minutes may be my limit before it would have a psychological cost even if there was a performance benefit. There’s already enough negative chatter and hate going on!

Yeah, that's what's getting me. You have the posters defending KI by saying he should do the training he finds fun and that you can't conclusively determine that his recent illness is related to him pushing too hard, rather than something his kids brought home. And I suppose they're right, at least insofar as you can't be absolutely sure.

But if you ask anyone what the risks are of pushing too hard, it's exactly what is happening to the guy!

I can see both points of view. But I probably agree more with the premise he's not doing himself any favors.

Also it's a very good point, do the training you find fun is fine. We are hobby joggers. But, if you are going to set goals and targets and go to the trouble of testing lactate, it's hard not to argue the point that it seems a little silly to just not slow down on easy days, which just about anyone can see is wrecking him.

I mean is it really that much more fun to be running 70-75% of mhr on easy days than 65-68? The difference in fun is minimal I'm sure, but the difference in fatigue is dramatic.

If there was no structure to anything, I could understand it mofe. But it's also hobby jogging, so do what you want.

You really think 75% of max HR is going to be too much on easy days compared to 65%? I bet it makes ZERO difference.

So the singlet arrived a while ago and I wanted to update.

361 degrees flame air singlet - cost me about £26 including delivery. First thing to say it's not a carbon copy of the Soar singlet, but a very close approximation.

The layup of the material is slightly different compared to the actual Soar singlet but you'd really have to look hard to tell the difference.

Sizing wise, I got a China XL which seems to line up to my L in Soar.

Unless for some reason it's really important to you to wear Soar branded kit, or you are sponsored and get Soar for free, at around a third of the price I'd just buy this.