Sebastian Coe vs Said Aouita - 1500/mile race - Who would win?

Coevett wrote:

Fair enough, I was a bit mean there.

I would have thought that anything that gives you the ability to train hard for several years would have long lasting effects.

Look at somebody like Gatlin. Whether or not he has been clean for the last few years, the benefits from the steroids, even if not providing any long lasting physical benefits themselves, surely gave him benefits he still enjoys from the years of extreme training they enabled?

There was a study of mice on steroids that suggested such an after-effect advantage exists with steroids (see below).

You might have a point for Gatlin, even if his comeback was completely clean.

But I haven't seen one that suggests the same for EPO.

But, supposing it's true for the sake of discussion, it provides a rather basic explanation for long term East African dominance: a lifelong exposure to high altitude, which increases EPO and RBC naturally, allows harder training than the equivalent person at sea level, might pre-dispose high altitude athletes to better performance, without going into arguments about genetic superiority or inferiority, or requiring synthetic EPO.

Then why do they have such a bad doping problem then? None of the Kenyan doping apologists seem to have a good explaination for that. A proud nation that takes it's distance running serious and has created a legacy second to none all in jeopardy now because prevalent doping.

There was actually a human study that showed a lingering gain from roids. I think that Aragon claims that transfusions helped performance after the blood parameters had stopped showing gains. An anecdotal story my late father once told me, one of his work colleagues (an Austrian builder) used to work like nobody he'd ever seen, a real rechargeable battery. One day my father learnt that he came from the alps in Austria and spent his early working life building and doing maintenance way up the mountains on ski fields (those real spectacular views-type fields) so a residual could exist. Though Renato claimed that if Kenyans spent too long at sea level they lose their advantage but that doesn't explain Sammy Wanjiru.

Deanouk wrote:

Where did I state Aouita doped?

I stated that Canova said Cova had links with Conconi and allegedly carried out blood transfusions.

Please learn to read what I wrote rather than ask me questions about things I never stated.

I never said you said Aouita doped.

I'm asking you a question.

You're comprehension is rather lacking Deanouk.

You should upload more running videos. (Actually no sarcasm in that statement. I really wished you did.)

Deanouk wrote:

The point I was making, indirectly to someone who claimed Coe was likely a doper based on the fact no other white man had run under 1:42 and that the other two men that have run faster are black African, is that Cruz ran within a foot of Coe’s time only 3 years later, and that he too was not a black African.

No. You responded to:

casual obsever wrote:

As for Coe, remember that blood transfusions were legal in 1981, and no OOC tests existed (regarding steroids), when he ran his insane 1:41, which was only bettered by two runners in 37 years ("coincidentally" one during the EPO era, one during the Diack era). Combine that with Coe's questionable character

"only bettered by two runners in 37 years": You brought race into this. Why do you lie so much?

Deanouk wrote:

Please learn to read what I wrote rather than ask me questions about things I never stated.

Cute. I didn't respond you last time because you came in swinging with all your exclamation marks, made it personal, twisted my words and then proceeded to ask me questions about things I never stated.

If we want to discuss progress in the marathon, compared to the EPO era, I suggest to also consider:

- that Paula's 2:15 from 2003 is still over 90 seconds ahead of today's best

- that today's huge pacer teams basically didn't exist in the EPO era

- that Kipchoge's 2:01 is a huge outlier

- that Kipchoge himself had only one outlier performance (e.g., no other WR prior to that)

- that the 4% shoes might have helped him significantly

In addition to the above, there are also training, and likely more importantly, nutrition advances. For an extreme example, Haile drank only water in London 2002. There are also advances in doping, that may or may not counter the need to use less EPO/blood doping.

Finally, all of the above is assuming that one can trust ADAK and IAAF. Personally I am not convinced, given their history.

Why ask me, and then tell me about what doping apologists failed to do? Doesn't it seem rather self-evident that a Kenyan doping apologist is unlikely to offer any explanation at all because they are unlikely to consider doping a problem, unlike you and me? And why single out Kenya? If we look at the latest published WADA's ADRV reports, we see that Kenya is not the only country with a bad doping problem. Russia, India, Morocco, Romania, Saudi Arabia, France, Italy and the United States also have bad doping problems, with more ADRVs than Kenya. Brazil, Spain, Chile, China, and Ethiopia are not far behind. Do you also look to Russian, Indian, Moroccan, French, Romanian, Saudi Arabian, Italian and United States doping apologists for good explanations of the bad doping problem in these countries? If you asked me -- but clearly you didn't -- I think the decision for Kenyans to dope is not an intellectual one. I can find no good explanation.

Not Buying It wrote:

Then why do they have such a bad doping problem then? None of the Kenyan doping apologists seem to have a good explaination for that. A proud nation that takes it's distance running serious and has created a legacy second to none all in jeopardy now because prevalent doping.

casual obsever wrote:

If we want to discuss progress in the marathon, compared to the EPO era, I suggest to also consider:

- that Paula's 2:15 from 2003 is still over 90 seconds ahead of today's best

- that today's huge pacer teams basically didn't exist in the EPO era

- that Kipchoge's 2:01 is a huge outlier

- that Kipchoge himself had only one outlier performance (e.g., no other WR prior to that)

- that the 4% shoes might have helped him significantly

In addition to the above, there are also training, and likely more importantly, nutrition advances. For an extreme example, Haile drank only water in London 2002. There are also advances in doping, that may or may not counter the need to use less EPO/blood doping.

Finally, all of the above is assuming that one can trust ADAK and IAAF. Personally I am not convinced, given their history.

Man...I like this guy's style. He makes you think about the reallty of elite athletics. And as he so elegantly points out, Radcliff was beating doped times by leaps and bounds!

I would agree with this guy: $$$$...so they can feed their families, escape poverty, help out their villages, etc. It's a dog eat dog world out there with third world nations. Hard work & talent will only get so far when you have to compete for a living against other hard working talent (e.g., Ethiopians).

casual obsever wrote:

If we want to discuss progress in the marathon, compared to the EPO era, I suggest to also consider:

- that Paula's 2:15 from 2003 is still over 90 seconds ahead of today's best

- that today's huge pacer teams basically didn't exist in the EPO era

- that Kipchoge's 2:01 is a huge outlier

- that Kipchoge himself had only one outlier performance (e.g., no other WR prior to that)

- that the 4% shoes might have helped him significantly

In addition to the above, there are also training, and likely more importantly, nutrition advances. For an extreme example, Haile drank only water in London 2002. There are also advances in doping, that may or may not counter the need to use less EPO/blood doping.

Finally, all of the above is assuming that one can trust ADAK and IAAF. Personally I am not convinced, given their history.

Paula did have male pacers for the whole race in 2003 and her woman only record is gone.

Besides that I agree and this was the point I was making to Coevett and Subway. EPO is not the significant marker, they believe that if a time is faster than an unregulated EPO era, it is proof of doping when in fact it is not. Steve Jones ran 2:07 back in the Early 80's with a ludicrous 61:46 first half, is it so hard to believe that some kid who has the advantage of living at altitude for his full life could run 2:04 or 2:05 now 30 something years later without EPO and good pacing which would be faster than any time ran before Tergat? Is that really unbelievable? But they proceed to say every African who runs that fast is laden with EPO.

Could very well be because so many of them are testing positive for the hot sauce, and the ones glowing with the roids/T, - house money says they're using it synergistically with Edgar (cocktail hour. Lol). Kisorio was popped for nandronlone but if you pay attention to his interview he talks about being "injected in the body to have more oxygen" and running so "smooth." Does that sound like just roids to you? ?

And these Kenyans being popped aren't just a bunch of slouches but are big time & prime time athletes: Olympic & WC medalists, major marathon & HM title winners, one WR, and some of the fastest times posted in their disciplines (Kiprop, Bett, Wangari, Yego, Kisorio, Rutto, Jebet, Jeptoo, Sumgong, Jepchumba, Chepchirchir). If it was just one or two big names you might have a point. But that's not the case here at all. C'mon man!....just look at those names and think what they've accomplished dirty. Lol.

rekrunner wrote:

... it provides a rather basic explanation for long term East African dominance: a lifelong exposure to high altitude, which increases EPO and RBC naturally, allows harder training than the equivalent person at sea level, might pre-dispose high altitude athletes to better performance, without going into arguments about genetic superiority or inferiority, or requiring synthetic EPO.

But then why is it that in the EPO era Kenyan and Moroccan times were taken to another level very quickly, whilst the rest of the word stagnated or even went backwards in some places such as GB?

If Kenyans and Moroccans living at altitude don't need EPO, why did their performances go through the roof as soon as EPO became widely available and then come crashing back down to Earth (aside from 'the roads') as soon as better testing/the biological passport came into play?

Well I know you're going to dispute this and claim you never said it (that African times improved more than the rest of the world), but I'm pretty sure that was a central claim of your big thesis. You claimed that the rest of the world's times did not improve markedly during the EPO era, and that proves that EPO doesn't work (because it's racist to suppose that Brits or Peruvians or New Zealanders were any less doping than Ethiopians and Kenyans). Now you're giving the Canova argument that Kenyans, Ethiopians (and to a lesser extent) Moroccans don't need EPO because they get all the benefits from living and training at altitude. So if this was the case, surely we should have witnessed the rest of the world getting better instead of Africans becoming practically unbeatable and making the European greats of just a decade or two earlier look slow.

Regarding the ethnicity of Cruz, isn't the point that even if he was to a large part of African heritage, his African ancestry was surely West African and not East African? Or do the people making the claim that Coe must have doped - because he was white - lump West Africans and East Africans together when discussing who has the '800m superman genes'?

So a white Brit of 1/4 Indian stock ran 1:41. A Brazilian of probably largely white European stock and some West African ancestry ran 1:41. And two Kenyans have ran 1:41. I don't see how that proves that Coe doped at all.

Furthermore, the people claiming Coe doped tend to believe (it seems to me) that a lot of Europeans and Americans (and Australians and New Zealanders) were doping. So you still have to explain why Coe was such an outlier.

BTW, Cruz idolized Coe, even in LA, and yet he was almost sent home from the Seoul Olympics for publicly stating that he thought Flo Jo was doping and a cheat. So Cruz definitely didn't have any suspicions about Coe.

Yes, the reason I'm suspicious of Kenyan performances is because of the huge number of doping positives, including Olympic Champions and including Kiprop (who was held up as pretty much the superior Kenyan phenotype), and the now confirmed and scandalous standard of testing in Kenya (tea money and bribes etc).

The argument that 'why is it so hard to believe that some Kenyans are running sub 3:30 clean? etc.' doesn't hold up really. Only a handful of countries have national 1500m records below 3:30. It's quite possible that (because of altitude, focus on distance running, diet etc) Kenya can produce dozens of athletes capable of running 3:35 - 3:40 times and out of that bunch, a dozen might take peds and become elite.

If you took a country like Japan, and channeled 95% of their best athletes into distance running, you would probably get dozens of them capable of low 3:30. Then give them almost a license to EPO themselves silly, with HGH and other things to top it off, and you would indeed I'm sure get Japanese runners dominating events like the 1500m.

You can actually see this a bit with the Marathon. I don't pay too much attention to the Marathon, but somebody recently here posted the number of Japanese marathoners under 2:20 or something compared to the number of Americans and it was staggering. Now just imagine if a large number of these Japanese marathoners were able to purchase EPO from their high street pharmacy and in the unlikely event of a tester coming for a blood sample, they would get a text warning them the day before and a nice cup of tea would be enough to keep them sweet anyway...

Same as it ever was... wrote:

but if you pay attention to his interview he talks about being "injected in the body to have more oxygen" and running so "smooth." Does that sound like just roids to you? ?

You just completely switched context on that to make it sound like he said he explicitly had that done when what he said was

Kisorio told the German broadcaster ARD last year that he took illegal drugs "because everyone told me, I wasn't the only one – and none of the others got caught for doping". He added: "I know that a lot of medical substances are used, which are injected straight to the blood for the body to have more oxygen. And when you run, you run so smooth. You have more stamina"

Why did you take words and context out of his comments to make it sound more more guilty? Your agendas do more harm to the truth and credibility when you cherrypick like this.

casual obsever wrote:

If we want to discuss progress in the marathon, compared to the EPO era, I suggest to also consider:

- that Paula's 2:15 from 2003 is still over 90 seconds ahead of today's best

- that today's huge pacer teams basically didn't exist in the EPO era

- that Kipchoge's 2:01 is a huge outlier

- that Kipchoge himself had only one outlier performance (e.g., no other WR prior to that)

- that the 4% shoes might have helped him significantly

In addition to the above, there are also training, and likely more importantly, nutrition advances. For an extreme example, Haile drank only water in London 2002. There are also advances in doping, that may or may not counter the need to use less EPO/blood doping.

Finally, all of the above is assuming that one can trust ADAK and IAAF. Personally I am not convinced, given their history.

Exactly, marathons have gotten way better paced. The cars/bikes with camera men on are even drafting. Kipchoge is a Ben Johnson outlier, a FloJo outlier. Stephen Kiprop beat the Vaporfly guys the other day. It is grubby in full view (but I still watch).

Now...that's telling it like it is. Sometimes the truth hurts with these Kenyan Kool-aid drinkers.

https://youtu.be/SbZ6Jiv91qc

Coevett wrote:

You can actually see this a bit with the Marathon. I don't pay too much attention to the Marathon, but somebody recently here posted the number of Japanese marathoners under 2:20 or something compared to the number of Americans and it was staggering. Now just imagine if a large number of these Japanese marathoners were able to purchase EPO from their high street pharmacy and in the unlikely event of a tester coming for a blood sample, they would get a text warning them the day before and a nice cup of tea would be enough to keep them sweet anyway...

You're just trying to get me to send you a rose for Valentine's Day. The only thing more entertaining than a Japanese marathon is a José Mourinho post-match interview.