I'm interested in <5000 too. How are you modifying this to be more suited for those distances ?
As competition season approaches (or even later into base building) I do 20-25x400 w/45s weekly hitting around @78-80. Every 15ish days or so I would aim to do 16 x 200m @mile effort on the track or as hill repeats.
However, I had some achilles issues recently which forced me to only do easy jogging for 2 weeks and I'm only 6 weeks into my current base build so avoiding anything faster then sub T and only hitting light strides (3k effortish) sparingly.
I'm doing a 2 mile race next month aiming to be in the 9:40s range so we'll see how much this sort of base fitness can carry me. I know from past experience that I can run low 4:30s off of only easy runs so it should be interesting either way.
Is there a reason why you picked 120 as a value for your heart rate to drop down to? Is it based on the interval training from the 1940s developed by Gerschler? I have always wondered about the logic in picking a number for heart rate recovery that is not based on the runner's resting heart rate. However, I guess you could also say that a 1 min recovery is sort of arbitrary as it's not really related to any recovery threshold heart rate for an individual runner either ....
Even if the guy told he started next rep when his pulse was 120 just from how it felt best for him and no other reason this is what you told is the method back from the 1930s invented scientifically by coach Gerschler and his companion Ph Reindel ......
They mainly found out in their experiments with thousands of runners that the interval rest " sweet spot" to get the very best stroke volume ( heart's ability to pump blood volume in one stroke) and stimulate the heart to grow stronger occured at around 120-130 bpm pulse. So Gershler's method then had his runners to recover in intervals until pulse was 120-130 bpm and in the reps sent the pulse up to around 180 bpm . This way his runners could do extremly many reps as e.g 100 x 200m or 200 x 100m and so on. Gerschler and his training method were extremly successful and he coached many of that times great runners. One exampel Rudolf Harbig who is the only man in history hold both the 400m/ 800m world records at the same time ( think I remember it was 46 sec and 1:46, almost 100 years ago!)
🇸🇪🧙♂️🇸🇪
The 120 hr for recovery used to be commonly quoted. But, this was based on youngsters who would have a max heart rate of around 200 bpm, so the 120 was simply 60% of max (and 180 bpm was 90%). I also thought this was more for VO2max type intervals, and Strides etc, rather than threshold.
For me personally, my hr never drops as low as 120 during the reps.
One thing that did cross my mind though, was about the start. I do my sessions at the gym, and run to the gym as the warm up. There is then a break of 5 mins or so before I start on the treadmill, and my hr has obviously dropped. However, this is no different to a race. The warmup will always finish, 5 to 10 mins before the start of a race.
Even if the guy told he started next rep when his pulse was 120 just from how it felt best for him and no other reason this is what you told is the method back from the 1930s invented scientifically by coach Gerschler and his companion Ph Reindel ......
They mainly found out in their experiments with thousands of runners that the interval rest " sweet spot" to get the very best stroke volume ( heart's ability to pump blood volume in one stroke) and stimulate the heart to grow stronger occured at around 120-130 bpm pulse. So Gershler's method then had his runners to recover in intervals until pulse was 120-130 bpm and in the reps sent the pulse up to around 180 bpm . This way his runners could do extremly many reps as e.g 100 x 200m or 200 x 100m and so on. Gerschler and his training method were extremly successful and he coached many of that times great runners. One exampel Rudolf Harbig who is the only man in history hold both the 400m/ 800m world records at the same time ( think I remember it was 46 sec and 1:46, almost 100 years ago!)
🇸🇪🧙♂️🇸🇪
The 120 hr for recovery used to be commonly quoted. But, this was based on youngsters who would have a max heart rate of around 200 bpm, so the 120 was simply 60% of max (and 180 bpm was 90%). I also thought this was more for VO2max type intervals, and Strides etc, rather than threshold.
For me personally, my hr never drops as low as 120 during the reps.
One thing that did cross my mind though, was about the start. I do my sessions at the gym, and run to the gym as the warm up. There is then a break of 5 mins or so before I start on the treadmill, and my hr has obviously dropped. However, this is no different to a race. The warmup will always finish, 5 to 10 mins before the start of a race.
I’ve just looked at some older runs and my heartrate before the first Rep would be under 100 if I stopped between the Warm-up and Reps for any reason. I would start my second 3 minute Rep at under 110 with a 60 second rest.
I now save the Warm-up, Session and Cool-down separately and jog my heartrate up to 120 before starting the main session.
Just to be absolutely clear, this is all unnecessary as I’m only doing it to better compare apples with apples. I don’t think it is contributing to any improvements, it just makes me happier.
Shoes guy here, I would advise against buying those Chinese shoes. Yes, they're cheap, but that comes with a price (pun unintended). As many people say, they have a cheap feel and don't fit Westerners as well. And there are even some accidents related to them. A prominent badminton player (Chen Yufei) used Li Ning and it literally fell apart right on court and her toe got cut.
That said, I get it, the shoe companies are greedy and charge more than they should, but they're the "big guys" for a reason. I would not risk wearing shoes that might give me injuries. One visit to an ortho/PT costs way more than a pair of supershoes even from the N brand.
Have you worn Chinese shoes? They don't feel cheap, and they don't fit westerners differently. Do you think that Chinese people have, like, web shaped feet? Also, if you're actually a "shoes guy", I think you would've heard about the incident where Nike's stock crashed when a basketball player's Nike shoes fell apart and he (Zion Williamson) sustained a knee injury. I'm convinced you work for an American shoe company.
Kipchoge running with his insoles hanging out of his Nikes, another classic
first marathon absolutely luved it - former athlete but not a runner in college and was impressed by all the intimidating former D1 talent in corral A lol. Paced with the 3 hour guy (a lot of in-race bitching about the pace) wanted to BQ, faded at end and finished right around goal. May try again but will actually put some serious miles in training and find a smaller fast race and aim for 2:40s or something crazy. Fun experience and weekend, well run event imo
The 120 hr for recovery used to be commonly quoted. But, this was based on youngsters who would have a max heart rate of around 200 bpm, so the 120 was simply 60% of max (and 180 bpm was 90%). I also thought this was more for VO2max type intervals, and Strides etc, rather than threshold.
For me personally, my hr never drops as low as 120 during the reps.
One thing that did cross my mind though, was about the start. I do my sessions at the gym, and run to the gym as the warm up. There is then a break of 5 mins or so before I start on the treadmill, and my hr has obviously dropped. However, this is no different to a race. The warmup will always finish, 5 to 10 mins before the start of a race.
I’ve just looked at some older runs and my heartrate before the first Rep would be under 100 if I stopped between the Warm-up and Reps for any reason. I would start my second 3 minute Rep at under 110 with a 60 second rest.
I now save the Warm-up, Session and Cool-down separately and jog my heartrate up to 120 before starting the main session.
Just to be absolutely clear, this is all unnecessary as I’m only doing it to better compare apples with apples. I don’t think it is contributing to any improvements, it just makes me happier.
Well Alfie, I was sure someone here would come up with this objection and I think you are right there was no runners over age 40 in Gerschler's and Reindler's experiments and most of tje runners with around 200 mhr ... but I have come up with my own ' tweak' as solution on this at older ages with lower mhr . You say you have problems to get your pulse down to 120 when you rest between reps and I think it then is a sign you are running your reps too fast . Normally if you run e.g 10-20 x 400m @ your 5 k pace you shouldn't need more than 60-90 sec rest to return at most to 120 bpm, if not the pace is bit fast for you and you should test run them 1-2 sec slower . The thing I have noticed when I coached older runners with about 170-180 mhr is that they infact improves equal relatively fast as younger runners with higher mhr around 200 even if they both rest back to 120 bpm . It seems that the needed span between mhr and 120 bpm to get the very best stroke volume can be little more reduced to an older runner and still get the best benefits. Sometimes I have also tested out on runners with lower mhr to let them rest back to 60 % of mhr with very good results . Many options here for the individual runner training with restpulse at intervals to experiment to find individual " sweet spot" .
Well Alfie, I was sure someone here would come up with this objection and I think you are right there was no runners over age 40 in Gerschler's and Reindler's experiments and most of tje runners with around 200 mhr ... but I have come up with my own ' tweak' as solution on this at older ages with lower mhr . You say you have problems to get your pulse down to 120 when you rest between reps and I think it then is a sign you are running your reps too fast . Normally if you run e.g 10-20 x 400m @ your 5 k pace you shouldn't need more than 60-90 sec rest to return at most to 120 bpm, if not the pace is bit fast for you and you should test run them 1-2 sec slower . The thing I have noticed when I coached older runners with about 170-180 mhr is that they infact improves equal relatively fast as younger runners with higher mhr around 200 even if they both rest back to 120 bpm . It seems that the needed span between mhr and 120 bpm to get the very best stroke volume can be little more reduced to an older runner and still get the best benefits. Sometimes I have also tested out on runners with lower mhr to let them rest back to 60 % of mhr with very good results . Many options here for the individual runner training with restpulse at intervals to experiment to find individual " sweet spot" .
🇸🇪🧙♂️🇸🇪
......and I infact mostly use the same principle of resting back to 120 bpm ( or 60 % of mhr) when it comes to lactate threshold intervals with very good results.......when the pace is slower at thresholds the heart recover faster back to 120 bpm ( or 60 % of mhr) compared to running maxVO2 pace.....
This way of training your intervals will. " automatically " give your body the rest it needs after every rep when the effort increase the more reps you do . This is a very smart, logical and effective way to train and so far all runners I have coached during now 10 years improved fast on this .
Even if the guy told he started next rep when his pulse was 120 just from how it felt best for him and no other reason this is what you told is the method back from the 1930s invented scientifically by coach Gerschler and his companion Ph Reindel ......
They mainly found out in their experiments with thousands of runners that the interval rest " sweet spot" to get the very best stroke volume ( heart's ability to pump blood volume in one stroke) and stimulate the heart to grow stronger occured at around 120-130 bpm pulse. So Gershler's method then had his runners to recover in intervals until pulse was 120-130 bpm and in the reps sent the pulse up to around 180 bpm . This way his runners could do extremly many reps as e.g 100 x 200m or 200 x 100m and so on. Gerschler and his training method were extremly successful and he coached many of that times great runners. One exampel Rudolf Harbig who is the only man in history hold both the 400m/ 800m world records at the same time ( think I remember it was 46 sec and 1:46, almost 100 years ago!)
🇸🇪🧙♂️🇸🇪
The 120 hr for recovery used to be commonly quoted. But, this was based on youngsters who would have a max heart rate of around 200 bpm, so the 120 was simply 60% of max (and 180 bpm was 90%). I also thought this was more for VO2max type intervals, and Strides etc, rather than threshold.
For me personally, my hr never drops as low as 120 during the reps.
One thing that did cross my mind though, was about the start. I do my sessions at the gym, and run to the gym as the warm up. There is then a break of 5 mins or so before I start on the treadmill, and my hr has obviously dropped. However, this is no different to a race. The warmup will always finish, 5 to 10 mins before the start of a race.
Now I saw I probably misunderstood you. You wrote ' For me personally , my hr never drops as low as 120 during the reps' ......are we talking about different 120 bpm ? I mean of course you should come down to 120 bpm during the recovery interval and not during your reps....
I’ve just looked at some older runs and my heartrate before the first Rep would be under 100 if I stopped between the Warm-up and Reps for any reason. I would start my second 3 minute Rep at under 110 with a 60 second rest.
I now save the Warm-up, Session and Cool-down separately and jog my heartrate up to 120 before starting the main session.
Just to be absolutely clear, this is all unnecessary as I’m only doing it to better compare apples with apples. I don’t think it is contributing to any improvements, it just makes me happier.
Just curious, what's your max HR?
I’m taking it as 185 but that’s not lab-tested. I’ve done a couple of solo 5k sessions, well paced and emptied it over the last 30-60 seconds, which got me that heartrate. I saw 200 on my watch at the end of a 5k a decade ago so I’m confident it’s “about right”. Same with the 170 I use as my LT and 165 for my ST. They’re probably “about right”.
What I’m enjoying about this training is I don’t feel the need to micromanage every last detail, which in fairness is true of most training approaches. We’re just trying to accumulate time spent within a range of lactate. Heartrate and pace are just proxies, they are not “the thing” that matters.
I think most approaches fail when we start trying to “optimise” and “maximise” training unnecessarily. We all know people that stress over and prioritise the smallest seconds in training paces but have terrible sleep or recovery. Training gives us a sense of control and influence.
Well Alfie, I was sure someone here would come up with this objection and I think you are right there was no runners over age 40 in Gerschler's and Reindler's experiments and most of tje runners with around 200 mhr ... but I have come up with my own ' tweak' as solution on this at older ages with lower mhr . You say you have problems to get your pulse down to 120 when you rest between reps and I think it then is a sign you are running your reps too fast . Normally if you run e.g 10-20 x 400m @ your 5 k pace you shouldn't need more than 60-90 sec rest to return at most to 120 bpm, if not the pace is bit fast for you and you should test run them 1-2 sec slower . The thing I have noticed when I coached older runners with about 170-180 mhr is that they infact improves equal relatively fast as younger runners with higher mhr around 200 even if they both rest back to 120 bpm . It seems that the needed span between mhr and 120 bpm to get the very best stroke volume can be little more reduced to an older runner and still get the best benefits. Sometimes I have also tested out on runners with lower mhr to let them rest back to 60 % of mhr with very good results . Many options here for the individual runner training with restpulse at intervals to experiment to find individual " sweet spot" .
🇸🇪🧙♂️🇸🇪
I don’t know how important the detail of the recovery is, but it is interesting to get into the weeds on this. The heart rate will gradually rise throughout the workout, both in terms of recovery hr and max hr. So the recovery hr (and max hr) reached at the end of the first rep will be lower than the subsequent rep etc. Although it is only a variation of a few beats.
Does anyone else’s hr drop as low as 60% on every recovery interval?
Well Alfie, I was sure someone here would come up with this objection and I think you are right there was no runners over age 40 in Gerschler's and Reindler's experiments and most of tje runners with around 200 mhr ... but I have come up with my own ' tweak' as solution on this at older ages with lower mhr . You say you have problems to get your pulse down to 120 when you rest between reps and I think it then is a sign you are running your reps too fast . Normally if you run e.g 10-20 x 400m @ your 5 k pace you shouldn't need more than 60-90 sec rest to return at most to 120 bpm, if not the pace is bit fast for you and you should test run them 1-2 sec slower . The thing I have noticed when I coached older runners with about 170-180 mhr is that they infact improves equal relatively fast as younger runners with higher mhr around 200 even if they both rest back to 120 bpm . It seems that the needed span between mhr and 120 bpm to get the very best stroke volume can be little more reduced to an older runner and still get the best benefits. Sometimes I have also tested out on runners with lower mhr to let them rest back to 60 % of mhr with very good results . Many options here for the individual runner training with restpulse at intervals to experiment to find individual " sweet spot" .
🇸🇪🧙♂️🇸🇪
I don’t know how important the detail of the recovery is, but it is interesting to get into the weeds on this. The heart rate will gradually rise throughout the workout, both in terms of recovery hr and max hr. So the recovery hr (and max hr) reached at the end of the first rep will be lower than the subsequent rep etc. Although it is only a variation of a few beats.
Does anyone else’s hr drop as low as 60% on every recovery interval?
Just looked at my latest ST run (6x5' with 60s) & my HR at the beginning of 2nd rep was 110 (54% of MHR), and at the beginning of my 6th rep was 133 (65% of MHR). Peak HR on rep 1 was 160 (78%), on rep 6 was 180 (89%). My threshold HR best estimate is 179.
Well Alfie, I was sure someone here would come up with this objection and I think you are right there was no runners over age 40 in Gerschler's and Reindler's experiments and most of tje runners with around 200 mhr ... but I have come up with my own ' tweak' as solution on this at older ages with lower mhr . You say you have problems to get your pulse down to 120 when you rest between reps and I think it then is a sign you are running your reps too fast . Normally if you run e.g 10-20 x 400m @ your 5 k pace you shouldn't need more than 60-90 sec rest to return at most to 120 bpm, if not the pace is bit fast for you and you should test run them 1-2 sec slower . The thing I have noticed when I coached older runners with about 170-180 mhr is that they infact improves equal relatively fast as younger runners with higher mhr around 200 even if they both rest back to 120 bpm . It seems that the needed span between mhr and 120 bpm to get the very best stroke volume can be little more reduced to an older runner and still get the best benefits. Sometimes I have also tested out on runners with lower mhr to let them rest back to 60 % of mhr with very good results . Many options here for the individual runner training with restpulse at intervals to experiment to find individual " sweet spot" .
🇸🇪🧙♂️🇸🇪
I don’t know how important the detail of the recovery is, but it is interesting to get into the weeds on this. The heart rate will gradually rise throughout the workout, both in terms of recovery hr and max hr. So the recovery hr (and max hr) reached at the end of the first rep will be lower than the subsequent rep etc. Although it is only a variation of a few beats.
Does anyone else’s hr drop as low as 60% on every recovery interval?
Yes, but only on the longest intervals. Looking at my past 3 workouts (3x12, 5x6, 12x3) on the 3x12 my lowest hr on the recovery was 116. On the 5x6 it was 129. On the 12x3 it was 130. I was using a hr strap for all of these so should be pretty accurate. My max hr as recorded by my watch in the middle of an 8K race was 200, although no hr strap was used for this just the wrist hr monitor.
Title spelled wrong, too cheap. Better wait on Bester's 35 bucks booklet, due Nov 31st.
Kindle only so far but I really hope there's a paperback on the way. If not then we need a PDF somehow, beyind a paywall or something. How many people have got Kindles?
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