LYDIARD OR DANIELS?

Nobby, it's very inspiring to read your advice and I thank you for it. I've seen some bad stagnation in the past several years; when I was 13 years old I ran 5:42 for the mile, which was good among others my age at the time, but to this day with 60-70 miles a week, I've never been under 5:00. Part of it is a lot of injury, but with some consistent training this fall, still nothing close to a breakthrough. But I will try to add some of the bounding and hill springing you mentioned.

Thank you again and please keep speaking about your training approach, as it's always very interesting to read these sort of things.

BSM:

What kind(s) of injury have you been getting? Observe carefully what possibly is causing your injury problem. This is one of the most important aspects of the Lydiard program--careful evaluation.

Possibly more of a reason why you should ease into possibly strenuous exercises like hill springing and bounding. If in doubt, do less.

Okay, how many times did I use a word "possibly"?

Nobby wrote:

BSM:

What kind(s) of injury have you been getting?

Everything. If a runner can injure the body part, I've injured it. In fact, you seemed to read my mind with your note about ankle strength. I use flats and train barefoot, but still have very weak/tight ankles without a big range of motion. Every doctor I go to demands orthoses, but since using flats, things have improved (but right now I have a persistent case of tendonitis in the ankle that has been around for 2+ months). I've had stress fractures in multiple metatarsals, soft tissue inflammation in metatarsals, chronomalacia (runner's knee), piriformis, sciatica, Achilles tendonitis, peroneal tendonitis, various forms of ankle tendonitis, a mild case of plantar...I'll end the list there. Sometime soon I will try for a 200m run at maximum speed to have a baseline value, then try for some hill exercises as you recommended and see how that improves things. As for easing into it, as my injuries might indicate, there's an element of stubbornness in many runners training themselves, but I'd say I've come to learn my lesson moreso now with gradualness.

Toshihiko Seko, one of the greatest marathon runners from Japan, was nicknamed "Department Store of Injuries". So don't despaire! Carrie Tollfeson is another one with injury after injury. Man, what's wrong with runners!?

Just looking at your list, I'll throw some thoughts and if you already have tried, bear with me. Stress fructure--calcium plus whatever else vitamin and minerals that help its obsorption. Inflammation--icing after exercise. Sciatica--stretching. Tendonitis--icing as well as deep massage. Plantar Fasciitis--American shoe disease... It seems like you are quite aware of these things and you started barefoot exercise as well as running in flats instead of bulky rigid shoes. Just keep doing it--it may take quite a while. Forget running 200 at the moment; just keep jogging nice and easily; try to jog on trail or grass as much as possible; and do some easy hill springing exercise. Maybe a bit difficult now we're heading for winter (just hope you don't live in MN!) but winter can be a good time to just jog nice and easily--snow actually may alliviate shock. Wear extra layer to slow you down. You probably need to strengthen your tendons and connective tissues and what's better than jogging nice and easily!?

I'd suggest you just jog nice and easily till at least March or April; forget 200m test till then. "Don't run hard until you can run easy." Include some hill exercise as much as condition allows and see what happens.

coachkritter wrote:

The problems with John Anderson's training program are the inability to peak, and stay healthy. Moorcroft was seldom healthy for Olympic, Commonwealth, or European Champs, when it counted. The year round anaerobic training in the schedule is the main culprit.

Recall the Brazilian marathoner who held the world record for a year or so. He had lots of year round anaerobic training. His training method was touted as a breakthrough, but you just knew that it was a hit or miss thing, and he would be injured soon. Same for the Santa Monica TC woman, Jenny Spangler, who won the OT marathon, after many years of injury.

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I absolutely agree. Periodization has more winners than any other method. Anderson's training of Moorcroft showed that for the most part periodization was desrgarded. Moorcroft did run some very fast times, but he wasn't able to put them together at the right time. With Moorcroft's natural ability combined with his stellar long-term work ethic, he was capable of far more in championship meets. I think if his training had been more periodized, he would have medaled at one of the Olympic Games or won a gold at the Commonwealth in the 5k. Sure, he would not have been able to run nearly as many races in good form, but when it counted most he would have arrived "on time."

My comments are intended not to take anything away from a man who showed great determination and dedication but rather to offer proof that one who works hard and tries hard isn't necessarily the one who wins the biggest prizes of important competitions. Planning is very much an important ingredient of successfully competing in the most important meets. I believe all the great coaches would agree with this statement. I know that Lydiard, Bowerman, and Daniels have mentioned examples of runners they coached who were well prepared beating more talented but less well-prepared runners.

If I remember it correctly, Moorcroft DID win gold medal in 1500 in 1978 Commonwealth Games in Edmonton.

I think his training contributed more to his injuries.

Lydiard's line was "It's not the best athlete who wins; but the best prepared."

He went further than just training. He was asked to pick the winner (prediction) of the 2000 Olympic marathon champs. He actually picked Naoko Takahashi as the women's winner and that was not because of her past performances. He and I talked, prior to the inquiry, about her coach, Yoshio Koide. Here was the man who checked whether it's a good idea to wear socks or not, whether it's better to wear sunglasses or not, etc. Attention to details. He rented hotel rooms at near the start of the race as well as near the finish; "We'd decide after checking how the traffic is--who know, we might be late and miss the start!" When he heard about these stories, he said this coach CAN deliver the gold medal performace. Incidentally, Arthur used to dip shoes into water and go for a run to see if that creats blisters. "Who know, someone might splash water over your shoed during the race..."

bump

AKA 'Wizzkid', not sure what happened, forum wouldn't let me post under that handle?

Speaking of 200 speed. I once saw Mark Everett run 4x200, with full recovery, in 21.8,21.8,21.5,21.3. But the guy couldn't run around the block, endurance wise.

coachkritter wrote:

I once saw Mark Everett run 4x200, with full recovery, in 21.8,21.8,21.5,21.3.

How and why? I dislike the genetics component of running to a strong degree, probably because I didn't spring from the womb and rip off a fast quarter like some of these guys seemed to have done. Nobby, if you don't mind, what sort of hill exercise did you refer to the other poster? For simple hill springing, is it acceptable to use road? (I have a tough time finding grass hills around here.) Thanks for posting.

Yes. You can use road for hill springing.

Depressed:

First thing you need to do is NOT to be depressed. Mark Everett is (was?) a great athlete who won a bronze medal in 800m at World Championship (wasn't it in Tokyo 1991?). Yes, he was a very FAST runner who probably didn't do much of endurance type training. In 800m there have always been some runner like him who is very fast and without doing much endurance trianing, do very very well.

It's, as fas as I'm concerned, a trade-off; in the case of Peter Snell, whose 200m PR was "only" 22 and a half, did lots and lots of endurance type running (which is the whole topic of this thread) and won 3 gold medals and set 8 world records. If you are not as fast as Evertt, like most of us, you can still develop stamina to counter. Not everybody is fast enough to be an internatinal-level 800m runner. Hanlberg wasn't. So he moved up to 5000m and won the gold medal. In the case of Barry Magee, his 200 PR was only 25 seconds! So he moved up to the marathon and won the bronze medal. The most amazing thing about Magee is the fact he was a member of the world-record setting 4X1mile with Snell, Halberg and another Lydiard-trained man, Phiolpt (I can't recall Magee's best mile time, help me out, HRE). Coe, as many people like to point out, trained less than Snell or perhaps other middle distance runners of the time; on the other hand, Ovett trained, reportedly, 150 miles a week. They were pretty much at the equal level with the number of WR set and 1980 Olympic Games (though Ovett had physical eilment in 1984 and didn't do as well as Coe).

And most of all, what you need to realize is all those athletes spent years and years, not weeks or months, training to get to where they are/were. As Lydiard ALWAYS said, don't look at what those elite athletes are doing, but look at what they were doing (training-wise as well as performance-wise) 10 years prior to that.

Be in owe of what those elite athletes can do and think "one day, I'll get there"; instead of "wow, they're so much better than me, might as well pack up and go home!" None of them is a born-champion. Every single one of them paid the price and their dues.

That having said; yes, there's no problem doing hill exercises on the road though, if you're a young athlete which I suspect you are, I'd still suggest to find some grassy area to performe these exercises. I used to do some easy hill springing on the backyard of our apartment; all you need is about 30 yard. Don't think of this as a part of continuous training run; think of this as an exercise like you do strides. There will not be THE perfect setting. Use your imagination. Use stadium steps to perform bounding (2 or 3 steps at a time); use library parking ramp to do bounding; how about slight incline to the water tower? What it (performing these hill exercises on grass) gives you is even more flexible and stronger ankle. I used to swear at the environment in Japan because there's NO trail or golf course we can run on (it's off-limit) until I realized I can do lots of these exercises over some rice field! I will not repeat how to do these hill exercises (check page 6; I made a couple of posts on the Lydiard hill exercises).

There was a crazy Karate man who dreamed of fighting a lion. He said "Lion is strong but he will not get stronger because he would not know fear. We can be stronger than a lion if we choose to because we KNOW that we are not as stong as a lion and have a brain to figure out how to get stronger." When it comes down to it, it's not muscles and bones you're born with that matters; it's what you've got between your ears and in your heart.

In addition to coaching, you should be a motivational speaker. This is really great information.

I always thought rice fields were under water. Oh well...

Barry Magee:

229 25

440 54.8

880 1:57.4

1500 3:51.1

mile 4:07.2

3,000 8:06

2 mile 8:40.2

5,000 13:39.2

10,000 28:50.6

10 mile 48:49

One hour 12miles 318 yards (does anyone do these anymore?)

30,000 1:34:47.4

marathon 2:17:19

Maybe this would be a good time to post my hill training. Nobby and others could suggest how some of you guys might vary from this. I learned how to do hill circuits from Arthur, with help from Nobby's video. I have made many adjustments to the way I do them based on advice from Nobby, Glenn and others. I recently discussed them with Barry Magee and Bill Baillie. Barry watch me do some springing up his driveway and said it was the same way he did it. Nobby has informed me, though, that many of these athletes had their own way of doing it.

In July, I did a 4 week hill phase, hitting weekly mileage of 80, 95, 93, and 64 (work and travel got in the way that last week). This is less mileage than I was doing in my base phase (see earlier post), but I find I need some serious recovery the day after hill circuits. I do 3 hill sessions per week (M-W-F). I worked my way up from 30 minute session to a max of 60 minute sessions. On Sunday I keep my long run going. I must say, I enjoy doing these, and they go by pretty quickly.

Glenn has done a great job of describing a Lydiard hill circuit, but here is how mine go:

I start with a 3 mile warm-up from my house to the hill with some easy striders thrown in along the way. The hill is about 400 meters long, fairly steep, but not too steep to run down smoothly. It has a 200m flat area at the top and a bigger flat area at the bottom.

I start springing up the hill with a VERY slow forward motion, pushing off hard from the ankles, while lifting the opposite knee, bouncing as high as I can, arms swinging, but relaxed in the shoulders. (This is not skipping - each foot touches only once). It takes me up to 4 minutes to climb 400m, so I am just creeping along - bouncing high, trying to maximize "air time". Once at the top, I slowly jog 200m out and 200m back to recover (about 3 minutes). Then, I run down the hill quite fast with big strides. Another 3 minute jog, then a set of 4 roughly 60m sprints (lifting the knees, up on the balls of my feet), each with a slow jog back to the start. After those, I jog another 3 minutes recovery, then start over with the next circuit.

After 4 circuits or so, I jog 3 miles home.

None of this is the least bit original. It came from the directly guys mentioned above and of course it all started with Arthur.

Variations: I added in some bounding and high-knee exercise on some of the circuits. I did this because it says to do so in "Running With Lydiard". After talking with Barry Magee and others, I know that they pretty much just did springing. Nobby and Glenn have said the same thing.

As I mentioned previously, these excercises made me FASTER. There is no doubt about that. As I think Glenn mentioned before, I have also become a bit more of a forefoot runner. On even the slightest uphill grade, I now run totally on my forefoot, which was not the case before. I have rather poor basic speed, but these make the most of it. After some weeks of this stuff, my down hill runs start hitting :60-:62. I start out at more like (:65-:67)and I feel like I am flying on the 60m sprints.

The really revealing thing is when I complete the 4 weeks and then go run some 800m repeats or something like that on the track. You can feel the difference and it is good! You can also see the difference. My calves are, um, Peter Snell-like. Yesterday I was demonstating springing for some high school kids and all they wanted to talk about was how my calves freak them out!

Hotlanta, where in the ATL is this hill?

Great description, so each circuit would take roughly 15 minutes. Do you do the same hill session 3 times a week. How would this type of hill work compare to just running up the hill at a strong effort and jogging down for recovery.

Great thread guys. I haven't had a chance to get through the whole thing yet, so I apologize if this question has been asked before, but I was wondering what Lydiard's opinion was regarding heart rate training. What would his 'steady state' aerobic pace have been in terms of a heart rate range? Thanks.