Sebastian Coe vs Said Aouita - 1500/mile race - Who would win?

Joaquim Cruz is not Caucasian wrote:

Deanouk wrote:

2) Why was his 1:41.7 insane? You say only 2 people have bettered it within 37 years. But another Caucasian (Cruz) practically equalled it 3 years later.

Does he look Caucasian to you?

http://i0.statig.com.br/bancodeimagens/0r/8q/pi/0r8qpipxp8hn9p91ekfndbcs9.jpg

Coe must have doped because no white guy could run as fast as him.

And I'm the racist for suspecting that 50+ doping cases in Kenya in a few years (despite abysmal testing standards) suggests their domination is due largely to doping?

I don't want to diminish Coe's greatness, which is beyond dispute, or even his 'freakishness', but that generation was a bit gilded in being among the first full-time professionals, with decent pacemaking, regular circuit races attracting money and audiences etc etc 'White' running seriously declined soon after due to the influx of EPO riddled African runners and lack of interest as well as rising obesity and decline in physical activity (and numerous other factors such as Premiership football syphoning off talent).

Dave Wottle, Snell, Jim Ryun (1:38! Lol), Ivo Van Damme, Jaunatoreno (don't know if you class him as caucasian), Ovett himself, could maybe have ran at least low 1:42 with their careers or eras being just a little different.

Further, 800m always seems to have had outliers, maybe because of its unique aerobic/anaerobic demands (Harbig, Snell..)

Snell was the best over 800m until Rudisha came around.

If Snell could have trained full time and run on a modern synthetic track, he could have achieved an amazing time.

Here's the thread wrote:

Subway Surfers wrote:

I think that Renato has admitted (begrudgingly) on here Cova was blood doping. But he is adamant altitude training is superior to a transfusion, which is preposterous.

If you want more info:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=257083

Wow, what a great thread.

It's interesting all of the people who accuse Canova of being inconsistent with stories when there he is 16 years ago saying the exact same thing as he does now about blood doping. Even his stories about Nicholas Kemboi are identical.

He even called it on what we would see in the marathon with blood doping on the first page on blood viscosity. The marathon record has dropped 3 and a half minutes since he wrote that post despite EPO and blood transfusions becoming more restricted and recorded extreme blood values dropping off a cliff. Renato wrote that post when blood transfusions were still undetectable and when there was no biological passport to prove someone had blood boosted yet. It dropped more in the last 15 years than it did in the previous 22 years despite those previous 22 containing the unregulated free for all on EPO and blood doping, the record only fell 30 seconds in the entirety of the 90s. How strange or how prophetic?

If EPO and blood doping is the important key to fast times, how are these runners today finishing 1 mile ahead of the best 90's runners who could take more EPO and larger transfusions in competition and out of competition? And could we avoid the easy low hanging fruit 'They don't get tested' seeing as the Moroccans and East Africans are tested more now than they were and are using now detectable substances.

I don't want a link to an article about some dodgy doctor, what is your answer to those questions Subway Surfer and Coevett as you are the two I always see accusing Canova of inconsistent stories.

I don't really argue with Canova much, apart from when he calls me an idiot for putting East African domination down to doping. I never accused him of being inconsistent, I don't think.

As far as the Marathon times improving since the 90's, two of the top three times were set recently by '90's track runners' who if we assume were doping to the gills with EPO back in the full throttle days are likely still benefiting today even if they long ago stopped. Marathon runners competing 2 or 3 times a year don't get tested nearly as often as track stars, and that might be a reason why Africans have been moving en masse to the roads (as well as prize money). Despite this, a number of East African marathoners have been busted, male and female.

Coevett wrote:

As far as the Marathon times improving since the 90's, two of the top three times were set recently by '90's track runners' who if we assume were doping to the gills with EPO back in the full throttle days are likely still benefiting today even if they long ago stopped.

Kipchoge and Bekele were never '90's track runners'.

Eliud Kipchoge 2:01:39 wrote:

Coevett wrote:

As far as the Marathon times improving since the 90's, two of the top three times were set recently by '90's track runners' who if we assume were doping to the gills with EPO back in the full throttle days are likely still benefiting today even if they long ago stopped.

Kipchoge and Bekele were never '90's track runners'.

Are you sure? Kipchoge looks like he's 50 years old.

Eliud Kipchoge 2:01:39 wrote:

Kipchoge and Bekele were never '90's track runners'.

O.k, not quite, but still near enough and in the El G EPO free for all era.

And of course Bekele is still the 5000 world record holder set at the tail end of the EPO free for all era (2004).

Sporting Clube de Portugal wrote:

Coevett wrote:

Coe was not linked to Francesco Conconi. Where is the proof of that? You think journalists or the Fancy Bears wouldn't have gotten hold of something like that?

What, were the Italian doctors, none of whom have come forward in 40 years despite Putin probably willing to pay them millions if they did, stirring his blood with their fingers after forgetting to wash their hands or something?

I will have to dig up a copy but I recall Coe thanking Conconi in his early 80's book. He even included pictures of him training in Sestriere prior to the Moscow Olympics.

I have also heard stories about Coe's dad/coach Peter writing about the benefits of transfusions in the 70's but I have not seen anything to support this.

That’s b*llocks! I have all the books the Coes ever wrote and there has never been any photos of them with Conconi or any thanks to him.

Coe didn’t train in Sestriere before Moscow, he trained in Rome.

Deanouk wrote:

Coe didn’t train in Sestriere before Moscow, he trained in Rome.

Like you and your acolytes normally say here: link?

Prove it.

Eliud Kipchoge 2:01:39 wrote:

Coevett wrote:

As far as the Marathon times improving since the 90's, two of the top three times were set recently by '90's track runners' who if we assume were doping to the gills with EPO back in the full throttle days are likely still benefiting today even if they long ago stopped.

Kipchoge and Bekele were never '90's track runners'.

But their best 5 & 10 times were long before the ABP came in so they were well into the epo era. Kipchoge is way, way faster than Aouita (who outted himself) despite the Moroccan being way, way faster over 1500m/Mile. So where did Kipchoge get all of this superior endurance? Bekele was even faster than Kipchoge on the track. The ABP just moderates doping levels.

Renato Canova, top Italian coach who regularly posts on here, is on record (on these boards) as stating that Cova used blood doping. This link mentions it also, and mentions Conconi and Cova in the same paragraph.

https://www.runnersworld.com/advanced/a20794669/renato-canova-speaks/

"So we used it (blood transfusions), but not all, because somebody refused in Italy. For example, Panetta, Stefano Mei, Bordin always refuse, every type of situation. But Cova, winning Olympics in 1984 and Antibo in 1984, they tried to do this…So, what happened after this? In ’85 was outlawed doping, and nobody used—finished…From ‘80-84, was the Italian Conconi, that won using this system. That was not doping at that time. But I want to tell, was that when Antibo finished using this, he improved a lot, for example…Cova finished his career, practically in ’86 because he had an injury. Maybe also losing some motivation because in ’82 he won European, in ’83 the World Championships, in ’84 won Olympics, in ’85 won both the European Cup 5 and 10. So after this, also his motivation was finished for Alberto Cova."

by Renato Canova.

And another reference to Cova blood doping under the advice of Conconi: -

"In the years 1978-1985 the self transfusion was legal, and in Italy the Olympic Committee (CONI) gave officially the task to prof. Conconi to support with this system many athletes of endurance (also swimmers).

Every athlete could chose to follow, or not, the "advices" of Conconi.

Some athlete, like Alberto Cova (WCh 1983 and Olympic Champion 1984 in 10000m), Salvatore Antibo, the Selvaggio twins and Fontanella followed his system. Some other, as Francesco Panetta, Stefano Mei and Gelindo Bordin, refused."

from

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=5505567&page=9

Deanouk wrote:

Sporting Clube de Portugal wrote:

I will have to dig up a copy but I recall Coe thanking Conconi in his early 80's book. He even included pictures of him training in Sestriere prior to the Moscow Olympics.

I have also heard stories about Coe's dad/coach Peter writing about the benefits of transfusions in the 70's but I have not seen anything to support this.

That’s b*llocks! I have all the books the Coes ever wrote and there has never been any photos of them with Conconi or any thanks to him.

Coe didn’t train in Sestriere before Moscow, he trained in Rome.

Well...what the heck was he doing in Rome then? When you got Conconi, Ferrari, etc. doing their blood doping research in Italy doesn't it look bad for a foreign athlete to be hanging out there?

Cova blood doping? No way! Can't be! He's my hero! You Brits got your heros and I got mine.

Snell wouldn't have been able to touch Coe's time over 800m. Inferior 1500m endurance (3:29 to 3:37 mile equivalent) and he never had the natural speed of Coe - 45.5 relay leg compared to Snell's 47.9 for 440 yd relay leg (worth 47.6 for 400m). 2 secs + difference over 400m and 8 secs over 1500m is not going to be made up by a synthetic track.

If someone is superior over 400m and 1500m, then their peak potential over 800m has to be superior.

That's not to diminish Snell's place in 800m history due to his 2 Olympic titles. He was head and shoulders above his peers, and a great championship racer, but he never showed the potential to run a time faster than Coe or others up to Rudisha.

pooorooove it wrote:

Deanouk wrote:

Coe didn’t train in Sestriere before Moscow, he trained in Rome.

Like you and your acolytes normally say here: link?

Prove it.

Idiot. Prove what?

Look in any of the books on Coe and it will tell you that he spent months in the spring of 1980 training in Rome. There is no need for a link. Anyone with an ounce of knowledge of that period would know that.

If someone makes a sweeping (generalised) accusation, such as Coe had photos in a book with Conconi or thanked him or trained with him in Sestriere (all of which said poster has pulled out his a***), then the onus is on him to supply a link! He can't because he knows he's made it up!

I suggested the link was between Cova and Conconi, and backed it up with 2 links from a known Italian coach who knew and worked with both Conconi and Cova. I've backed up my statements with links. Now you go and do the same for Coe !

Joaquim Cruz is not Caucasian wrote:

Deanouk wrote:

2) Why was his 1:41.7 insane? You say only 2 people have bettered it within 37 years. But another Caucasian (Cruz) practically equalled it 3 years later.

Does he look Caucasian to you?

http://i0.statig.com.br/bancodeimagens/0r/8q/pi/0r8qpipxp8hn9p91ekfndbcs9.jpg

Caucasian refers to Europeans, those of European descent, Arabs, North Africans and Indians.

Where do you think most Brazilians originate from? Clue, they speak Portuguese!

While Joachim Carvalho Cruz may not be classed as white European, he is certainly of mixed heritage which includes Europeans. He is certainly not Kenyan or East African, where the other 3 sub 1:42 800m runners originate from.

"Cruz is a surname of Iberian origin, first found in Castile, Spain, but later spread throughout the territories of the former Spanish and Portuguese Empires. In Spanish and Portuguese, the word means "cross", either the Christian cross or the figure of transecting lines or ways. "

"Portuguese: topographic name for someone who lived by a conspicuous oak tree, carvalho, or a habitational name from any of numerous places named with this word. This name is also found in western India, where it was taken by Portuguese colonists."

Before you call me an idiot, bear in mind that I am Portuguese, I am way more knowledgeable about non-UK athletics than you are ans also, you have no flipping idea what "Caucasian" means, if you think Joaquim is one.

This is evidence of your ignorance:

"Where do you think most Brazilians originate from? Clue, they speak Portuguese!"

LOL

What an idiot you are. And ignorant too.