El Guerrouj 2k WR - Incredible 3:49 Mile pace

how does that work? wrote:

Of course a doped athlete will claim EPO is a performance enhancer.

Lance sure does. ?

Tom Cochrane wrote:

Have you ever used EPO or spoken to athletes who have? The people who use the drugs are the ones to tell you how they work.

If you want to know what childbirth is like, you don't ask an obstetrician. You ask a mother.

We have to take athlete anecdotes with caution too -- as they are not that good at isolating and determining cause and effect, as the choice to take EPO can come with other changes, and placebo effect is also something very real and significant.

But go on then -- give me something of substance to consider.

Have *you* talked to any elite distance running athletes about their personal experience with EPO?

Can you share some of these anecdotes? Give me the best five anecdotes from distance running athletes in their own words to consider.

I've seen many EPO testimonials from cyclists, but not that many from distance runners.

Among cyclists, if we take someone like Lance -- we know that he was taking many things at the same time, according to a sophisticated timetable prescribed by Dr. Ferrari. So was it EPO, HGH, testosterone, cortisone, some combination of these drugs, the sophisticated timing, or all just one massive placebo effect from the biggest believer there ever was? Or was it just team work from a very effective and motivated and motivating leader who surrounded himself with a bunch of self-sacrificing soldiers?

If we take someone like Tyler Hamilton, he tells us that clean riders can win one day events, but not the grand tours, because the next day they are spent. This suggests similarly, that clean runners can win one day events, like road races, and track events.

What I have seen is non-African distance male runners seeming to fail universally to capitalize on these significant gains from EPO that hundreds and hundreds of Africans can, and could for more than three decades, even when they emigrate to countries like Denmark, Japan, and the USA. Look at the all-time USA list for 10000m: it starts out with domestic athletes Rupp, Solinsky, then we have a string of imports from Meb, Abdi, Lomong, Kipchirchir, and Korir, before we reach pre-EPO Mark Nenow.

Do you have any American anecdotes in 10000m to share with me?

We are in a thread about 3000m -- why is Johnny Walker's performance still relevant after three decades of EPO?

The story of the women is slightly different, confounded by the significant effect of testosterone and steroids combined with a lack of deep history.

This pattern of high performance linked to EPO is a sketchy one -- even when you consider all of the anecdotes and all of the evidence from science put together.

High-Octane Dopers wrote:

how does that work? wrote:

Of course a doped athlete will claim EPO is a performance enhancer.

Lance sure does. ?

https://youtu.be/dVvoZ_Y8nDw

And who told him to dope?

His coach was Michele Ferarri who, along with the equally infamous dope doctor Francesco Conconi believed that EPO was capable of rewriting the laws of physics.

But I will stick with Isaac Newton. I know I'm on much safer ground with him 336 years after his work was published.

how does that work? wrote:

Burning energy (metabolism)at a faster rate increases thermogenesis. We are limited genetically homeostatically, thermodynamically.

Energy kinetics in sport has more than a metabolic component. Trying to get so called Exercise Physiologists to debate this issue seriously is a forlorn hope. They are either just plain ignorant or afraid.

Geez...Jon, how long have you been trolling these blood doping threads? Maybe several years or even a decade now? You change your handle from time to time but your footprint is always detectable.

Here's Matt to simplify EPO's performance enhancement effects in endurance sport. Plus the second half is also good on the effects of low dose T/androgens used by runners for enhanced protein synthesis and recovery. That has been the popular stack with dopers - EPO or transfusions with T or an anabolic steroid, particularly nandrolonoe. Many Kenyans have tested positive for Deca.

how does that work? wrote:

Tom Cochrane wrote:

Have you ever used EPO or spoken to athletes who have? The people who use the drugs are the ones to tell you how they work.

If you want to know what childbirth is like, you don't ask an obstetrician. You ask a mother.

Of course a doped athlete will claim EPO is a performance enhancer. They know as much science as you do.

And much more than you.

I am not interested in feeding your delusions to such an extent.

rekrunner wrote:

Among cyclists, if we take someone like Lance -- we know that he was taking many things at the same time, according to a sophisticated timetable prescribed by Dr. Ferrari. So was it EPO, HGH, testosterone, cortisone, some combination of these drugs, the sophisticated timing, or all just one massive placebo effect from the biggest believer there ever was? Or was it just team work from a very effective and motivated and motivating leader who surrounded himself with a bunch of self-sacrificing soldiers?

Lance has discussed this before. Recall he categorizes HGH, T, cortisone as "low-octane" doping, and EPO as "high-octane" doping. Lance says pre-Ferrari he "low-octaned" doped including his 1993 WC victory that was a one-stage event conducted over a relatively flat course. He also had other one-stage event victories or podium placings. One thing is for certain, Lance couldn't climb worth beans pre-Ferrari. I think it was the first high mountain stage of the 93 Tour that he got dropped like a hot potato and eventually abandoned that Tour. I recall that the post-stage interview he referred to the top GC guys that dropped him as "superhuman." And what was his famous words when he first met Ferrari? "I want to be like those guys."

Secondly, Lance's "self-sacrificing soldiers" were all doped to the gills as part as the team's structured & sophisticated doping program. He had some of the best doped climbers in the business to push high tempo in the mountains. His top lieutenant Roberto Heras went on to win 4 Vueltas! But there were other teams that also had a structured doping program with top doping doctors and world class climbers too. Telekom with 97 Tour winner Jan Ulrich could match U.S. Postal's high tempo with their group of climbers, and they even carried a top sprinter that they had to work for on the flat stages (Lance made sure his teams never had a rider to contest the sprints).

The bottom line during Lance's heyday was that almost every top GC guy was using EPO:

"More importantly for Lance Armstrong, during the 7-year window when he won the Tour de France (1999-2005) 87% of the top-10 finishers (61 of 70) were confirmed dopers or suspected of doping"

"87%!" Yikes! ?

So, Lance simply outsmarted & outrode his competition and had Lady Luck on his side never crashing out of any of those Tours. But one thing is for certain; without EPO Lance would have never won anything nor even be in the game with the widespread use of EPO by the other teams. What did 1996 Tour winner Bjarn Riis once say? Doping was the normal preparation for a rider back then.

Proof of ignorance. The expert who has never done what he claims to know. But he has his numbers - and they are never wrong.

1. We have to take athlete anecdotes with caution too -- as they are not that good at isolating and determining cause and effect, as the choice to take EPO can come with other changes, and placebo effect is also something very real and significant.(quote)

- In your mind only. But not to those using drugs. They are also pretty good at isolating cause and effect because it is their body experiencing these changes.

2. Among cyclists, if we take someone like Lance -- was it EPO, HGH, testosterone, cortisone, some combination of these drugs, the sophisticated timing, or all just one massive placebo effect from the biggest believer there ever was? Or was it just team work from a very effective and motivated and motivating leader who surrounded himself with a bunch of self-sacrificing soldiers? (quote)

- Proof of doping denial. Doping doesnt really work; it was all just in Lance's imagination.

High-Octane Dopers wrote:

"More importantly for Lance Armstrong, during the 7-year window when he won the Tour de France (1999-2005) 87% of the top-10 finishers (61 of 70) were confirmed dopers or suspected of doping"

"87%!" Yikes! ?

So, Lance simply outsmarted & outrode his competition and had Lady Luck on his side never crashing out of any of those Tours. But one thing is for certain; without EPO Lance would have never won anything nor even be in the game with the widespread use of EPO by the other teams. What did 1996 Tour winner Bjarn Riis once say? Doping was the normal preparation for a rider back then.

So if every rider was doping -- we have to look to other significant factors.

Armstronglivs wrote:

Proof of ignorance. The expert who has never done what he claims to know. But he has his numbers - and they are never wrong.

Take away the numbers, and this is becomes you.

I think you don't know what placebo effect is. It is not just imagination.

If there is a placebo effect -- this is also an argument that doping works, but for different reasons.

Tom Cochrane wrote:

I am not interested in feeding your delusions to such an extent.

Are you too busy feeding yours?

Seems like if the spoken words of distance running athletes are so important, we should hear them.

Which elite runners have you spoken to about their use of EPO?

rekrunner wrote:

Tom Cochrane wrote:

I am not interested in feeding your delusions to such an extent.

Are you too busy feeding yours?

Seems like if the spoken words of distance running athletes are so important, we should hear them.

Which elite runners have you spoken to about their use of EPO?

Ah, your "who is elite" goalpost. No thanks.

Confessing dopers have described their experience and you contorted everything to dodge that.

You'll never change. Ever.

Tom Cochrane wrote:

Ah, your "who is elite" goalpost. No thanks.

Confessing dopers have described their experience and you contorted everything to dodge that.

You'll never change. Ever.

Elite athletes and anecdotes were your goalpost.

Busted athletes confessing aren't really neutral observers, are they?

rekrunner wrote:

Tom Cochrane wrote:

Ah, your "who is elite" goalpost. No thanks.

Confessing dopers have described their experience and you contorted everything to dodge that.

You'll never change. Ever.

Elite athletes and anecdotes were your goalpost.

Busted athletes confessing aren't really neutral observers, are they?

No, they were yours. You asked for them.

And then you just moved them again in your next sentence . As you do.

rekrunner wrote:

Elite athletes and anecdotes were your goalpost.

Tom Cochrane wrote:

No, they were yours. You asked for them.

And then you just moved them again in your next sentence . As you do.

Really?:

Tom Cochrane wrote:

Have you ever used EPO or spoken to athleteswho have?

The people who use the drugs are the ones to tell you how they work.

Tom Cochrane wrote:

And about 2-5 for elites, which is the whole point.

Tom Cochrane wrote:

Elites benefit.

Looks to me like elite athletes and anecdotes are your goals.

Have you used EPO, or spoken to athletes who have, before saying "Elites benefit"?

Nope. Elites benefit is the point. Evidence is not an anecdote.

Keep moving them.

Yes we've heard all this many times. But it is not reliable Bioenergetics.

Get your head out of the 90s. They all believed this. But the power outputs weren't superhuman. They weren't higher than today's young athletes.

Maybe you can't accept what the best exercise physiologists say and you want to believe the quacks, but think about where the money goes? The worse the advice, the more expensive it is in health and finance. This is true in sport and in Hollywood.