Paul, I discovered your channel through this thread and I've been enjoying the videos, especially the race breakdowns.
When do we get the SeriousHobbyJogger vs FODrunner HM showdown? If the Boston Marathon is the hobby jogger Olympics, what's the hobby jogger Commonwealth Games?
When it comes to NSA everyone is always "People can't keep their paces in the assigned ranges"
Might be that I'm old (50), maybe it's just being used to running with a Garmin watch telling me what to do ... or maybe I'm just an outlier, but I don't feel that at all.
But I do wonder whether the SubT paces given by Lactrace etc really are as risk free as everyone seems to thing?
-
Anyways .. I started running in the spring and would just do whatever my Garmin suggested .. That was a first base running at 7:15/km and a bit of 9:00 recovery running. It had me running +20 km a week fairly quickly.
Paces dropped to 6:40 for the base run and the Garmin started adding threshold runs at 5:40 once a week for either 3x8 min or 1x20 min .. Also a VO2max run would be suggested once a week, but I would ignore those as the thought of running 1 min reps was too much and I'd just do a base run instead.
Gamin had me running 5 days a week.
Brought my 5k down to 27:00 during those 6 months (Copenhagen has a yearly cooperate 5x5 km in August where +100k runners participate for their workplace)
-
Anyways .. Discovered this thread and NSA after running for 6 months like this and having a weekly mileage of 25-30 km.
I'm still running 5 days a week and mileage is the same.
The difference between this and the garmin suggestion is that the base runs have gotten slower and are not around 8:00, but the 3 SubT runs (Saturday, Tuesday and Thursday) around 6:00 just f... with me.
I quickly got Achilles pain. That is almost gone now, but I'm often sore in my ankles and under my feet.
I'm not sure running at the SubT paces is so risk free as everyone makes it out to be. Sure most here are seasoned runners, but for older noobs like me it might be too much.
So maybe it makes good sense to just run easy for a couple of months .. or run truly easy in 8:00 combined with semi-easy at 6:40-7:00 on the "SubT" days and just concentrate on increasing mileage instead?
-
BUT ... My biggest worry is that the problem will still be there in 3 months time when I again try to incorporate faster paces???
Thanks for this. It's really interesting as a post, because I have had a similar experience with the Tymewear. My cycling Lt1 they have around 72% FTP. But running is just below MP by 10-15s/km, roughly where you would expect it to be.
Any reasoning behind 800 repeats? Just curious.
It's dark, my light is broken and 800m is the only flat stretch I can run after work in the week, without it being too dark. It's asking for trouble running at speed in the dark if you can't see properly. 1km would mean crossing a road. I've ordered a new headlamp from china ha ha
At the end of the day, 3 mins is the goal for short reps, as I've always said, +-30 seconds either side will do and doesn't change things massively in the bigger picture. I wish I could tell you there is a better reason than that. But, that's it. Sometimes people are reading far too much into what is going on.
When it comes to NSA everyone is always "People can't keep their paces in the assigned ranges"
Might be that I'm old (50), maybe it's just being used to running with a Garmin watch telling me what to do ... or maybe I'm just an outlier, but I don't feel that at all.
But I do wonder whether the SubT paces given by Lactrace etc really are as risk free as everyone seems to thing?
-
Anyways .. I started running in the spring and would just do whatever my Garmin suggested .. That was a first base running at 7:15/km and a bit of 9:00 recovery running. It had me running +20 km a week fairly quickly.
Paces dropped to 6:40 for the base run and the Garmin started adding threshold runs at 5:40 once a week for either 3x8 min or 1x20 min .. Also a VO2max run would be suggested once a week, but I would ignore those as the thought of running 1 min reps was too much and I'd just do a base run instead.
Gamin had me running 5 days a week.
Brought my 5k down to 27:00 during those 6 months (Copenhagen has a yearly cooperate 5x5 km in August where +100k runners participate for their workplace)
-
Anyways .. Discovered this thread and NSA after running for 6 months like this and having a weekly mileage of 25-30 km.
I'm still running 5 days a week and mileage is the same.
The difference between this and the garmin suggestion is that the base runs have gotten slower and are not around 8:00, but the 3 SubT runs (Saturday, Tuesday and Thursday) around 6:00 just f... with me.
I quickly got Achilles pain. That is almost gone now, but I'm often sore in my ankles and under my feet.
I'm not sure running at the SubT paces is so risk free as everyone makes it out to be. Sure most here are seasoned runners, but for older noobs like me it might be too much.
So maybe it makes good sense to just run easy for a couple of months .. or run truly easy in 8:00 combined with semi-easy at 6:40-7:00 on the "SubT" days and just concentrate on increasing mileage instead?
-
BUT ... My biggest worry is that the problem will still be there in 3 months time when I again try to incorporate faster paces???
I found lactrace’s ranges too aggressive, especially as I rapidly improved my 5k time in the span of a month (hadn’t used lactrace in a while but figured I’d check—still too fast). I just calculate my ceiling for each rep distance based on a race equivalent calculator (McMillan works best for me, since it skews more conservative when predicting longer races from shorter results). Happy to explain more in-depth, though it’s basically what’s been covered since page 1 or 2.
Key is also, and this has been said ad nauseum but always bears repeating, those are ceilings. For example, after my last TT a little over a month ago, my own calculation of my new 3min. rep pace (based on estimated 1hr race pace, not lactrace) was 6:17/mi. I’d routinely been starting workouts in the low 6:40s and working down to low 6:30s. If I’d instantly started trying to run all 10 reps at 6:17, I’d last a couple weeks and then get hurt or tired. It’s only been the last couple weeks that I’ve felt comfortable hitting my last rep in 6:17-20, which puts my HR right at my estimated LTHR. Yesterday was the first workout where all my reps were under 6:30/mi., and the last one was 6:18. Average was 6:25. For reference, lactrace says my range should’ve been 6:12-23/mi. for over a month now. Preposterous.
Lactrace also says my easy pace is 8:41/mi. No. I’m in the 9s, occasionally 8:50s on a cool day with the wind at my back. Cap it at 70% HR. I’m actually preachy about this now, since last year I was less conservative about pacing and pushed myself right into an injury. This year I’ve gone from 19:20s (June) to 18:0s (early October) to probably sub-18 (this week or next) despite a couple down weeks for travel/sickness. Didn’t realize this reply would be so long, but looking at lactrace again got me heated lol. Probably fine for some people, but it’d have me toasted.
This post was edited 2 minutes after it was posted.
Things like this are supposed to be used as guidance and not as facts. We are too complex to be quantified by paces, HR and lactate measurements. So, if you feel that the paces are too fast for you to be able to recover and be ready for the next session, then they are probably too fast.
I am running too slow according to LacTrace, but too fast according to my HR data. But none of this really matters as I feel good, pain free and always recovered for the next session.
Thanks WashedAF ... The easy pace is not hard to figure out. I just need to stay under 130 BPM and that is around 8:00 for the first 2-3 km and then I'll get slower and end up running 8:30 at the end ...
But yeah .. The SubT stuff is harder, cause my issues will start to bite long before the heartrate reaches threshold ... :D
But yeah ... Lactrace is probably too aggressive. I'll probably try to lower pace to 6:20-6:30 and if that still comes with issues I'll probably go lower still
It's wild going back to the beginning and seeing where it all started. We were so young and innocent, once upon a time...;)
I count myself lucky to be one of the ones who has had their later years of running brought back to life, so ever thankful for the thread. I do genuinely wonder where I or others would be if sirpoc had never chosen to reply to the thread. Does anyone know how or why he even bothered?
I don't even bother watching running content anymore, based on the fact this has taken the pressure off the 'what next' in my running. More time for other things. So the usual suspects on YouTube , social media, are at least minus one viewer because of the thread. I think I'm enjoying running more, because nowadays I'm thinking about it less. I'm not worrying what I am going to do for my next block. I know what I'll be doing in 3weeks or even 6 months away. That's a huge upside, although obviously my huge performance gains are a big part of that!
I may be wrong but I think he was trying to use running as a way to figure out how to improve his bike, and then realized he could apply sweetspot from the bike to running. I may be wrong though, he chimed in about 4-5 pages into the initial 2023 thread.
Sir Peter of Crouch, right? I seem to remember that's where it comes from. I honestly think the type of podcast Peter Crouch does, he would actually love this story, that he's effectively been part of a running craze. Would be right up their street.
Wait, what? That's what sirpoc means? One of my favourite podcasts and love this method. That's potentially my mind blown.
Official YouTube channel for the UK's favourite podcast with Peter Crouch and Chris Stark. Here you will get to watch the boys record the pod, get behind the scenes and enjoy all the laughs as they happened in the pub.
When it comes to NSA everyone is always "People can't keep their paces in the assigned ranges"
Might be that I'm old (50), maybe it's just being used to running with a Garmin watch telling me what to do ... or maybe I'm just an outlier, but I don't feel that at all.
But I do wonder whether the SubT paces given by Lactrace etc really are as risk free as everyone seems to thing?
-
Anyways .. I started running in the spring and would just do whatever my Garmin suggested .. That was a first base running at 7:15/km and a bit of 9:00 recovery running. It had me running +20 km a week fairly quickly.
Paces dropped to 6:40 for the base run and the Garmin started adding threshold runs at 5:40 once a week for either 3x8 min or 1x20 min .. Also a VO2max run would be suggested once a week, but I would ignore those as the thought of running 1 min reps was too much and I'd just do a base run instead.
Gamin had me running 5 days a week.
Brought my 5k down to 27:00 during those 6 months (Copenhagen has a yearly cooperate 5x5 km in August where +100k runners participate for their workplace)
-
Anyways .. Discovered this thread and NSA after running for 6 months like this and having a weekly mileage of 25-30 km.
I'm still running 5 days a week and mileage is the same.
The difference between this and the garmin suggestion is that the base runs have gotten slower and are not around 8:00, but the 3 SubT runs (Saturday, Tuesday and Thursday) around 6:00 just f... with me.
I quickly got Achilles pain. That is almost gone now, but I'm often sore in my ankles and under my feet.
I'm not sure running at the SubT paces is so risk free as everyone makes it out to be. Sure most here are seasoned runners, but for older noobs like me it might be too much.
So maybe it makes good sense to just run easy for a couple of months .. or run truly easy in 8:00 combined with semi-easy at 6:40-7:00 on the "SubT" days and just concentrate on increasing mileage instead?
-
BUT ... My biggest worry is that the problem will still be there in 3 months time when I again try to incorporate faster paces???
Running 3 x 30 mins S/T each week, seems far too much with a total weekly mileage of only 25-30 Km per week. More easy mileage is needed for the aerobic support to the S/T work.
When it comes to NSA everyone is always "People can't keep their paces in the assigned ranges"
Might be that I'm old (50), maybe it's just being used to running with a Garmin watch telling me what to do ... or maybe I'm just an outlier, but I don't feel that at all.
But I do wonder whether the SubT paces given by Lactrace etc really are as risk free as everyone seems to thing?
-
Anyways .. I started running in the spring and would just do whatever my Garmin suggested .. That was a first base running at 7:15/km and a bit of 9:00 recovery running. It had me running +20 km a week fairly quickly.
Paces dropped to 6:40 for the base run and the Garmin started adding threshold runs at 5:40 once a week for either 3x8 min or 1x20 min .. Also a VO2max run would be suggested once a week, but I would ignore those as the thought of running 1 min reps was too much and I'd just do a base run instead.
Gamin had me running 5 days a week.
Brought my 5k down to 27:00 during those 6 months (Copenhagen has a yearly cooperate 5x5 km in August where +100k runners participate for their workplace)
-
Anyways .. Discovered this thread and NSA after running for 6 months like this and having a weekly mileage of 25-30 km.
I'm still running 5 days a week and mileage is the same.
The difference between this and the garmin suggestion is that the base runs have gotten slower and are not around 8:00, but the 3 SubT runs (Saturday, Tuesday and Thursday) around 6:00 just f... with me.
I quickly got Achilles pain. That is almost gone now, but I'm often sore in my ankles and under my feet.
I'm not sure running at the SubT paces is so risk free as everyone makes it out to be. Sure most here are seasoned runners, but for older noobs like me it might be too much.
So maybe it makes good sense to just run easy for a couple of months .. or run truly easy in 8:00 combined with semi-easy at 6:40-7:00 on the "SubT" days and just concentrate on increasing mileage instead?
-
BUT ... My biggest worry is that the problem will still be there in 3 months time when I again try to incorporate faster paces???
To add to what WashedAF said, Your case might be at or even below the lower limit of where vanilla NSM works, and in my opinion, some adaptations might make sense in your case. Let me explain:
- relatively new to running. Before NSM even was a thing, there were some generally accepted knowledge about aerobic base and more importantly tendons and muscle resitance/strength taking time to build. Time as in more than a full year. You are at risk in the phase, especially if past 30. Take your time, build into the milage first without too much intensity. Then you build intensity into your stabilized milage. Again take your time. This should be a plan over more than one year.
- 5 sessions a week. In my opinion, 3 sub T for 5 sessions total simply doesn't work. I'd keep it at 2 subT sessions max and I don't think I am alone in that opinion. At your level and your volume, easy running and 1 sub T would already help you improve while not being too agressive for the body. Also do less reps than the vanilla schedulle and maybe longer recoveries between reps (not too long either, you don't want your HR to drop too much). You don't want to have sub T representing more than 25% of your total volume and in my opinion that's higher priority than doing 3 sub T sessions.
What I would do in your case would be maybe to run easy only until you don't feel any niggle, then work up into one sub T and maybe start adding some length to one of the runs progressively. You might as well decide one long run every other week can be enough, and that could work, but don't suddenly do a 90 minutes long run if your longest of the last few mounths was 50 minutes. For the sub T start conservatively. Something like a 4x4 minutes with 2 minutes rests is already some interesting stimulus. Try to keep at it several weeks, then see if you can try to have 2 second sub T. Maybe another rep length for variety, but keep it at a reasonnable volume. You could add reps later on, when you are certain you can sustain that training.
When it comes to NSA everyone is always "People can't keep their paces in the assigned ranges"
Might be that I'm old (50), maybe it's just being used to running with a Garmin watch telling me what to do ... or maybe I'm just an outlier, but I don't feel that at all.
But I do wonder whether the SubT paces given by Lactrace etc really are as risk free as everyone seems to thing?
-
Anyways .. I started running in the spring and would just do whatever my Garmin suggested .. That was a first base running at 7:15/km and a bit of 9:00 recovery running. It had me running +20 km a week fairly quickly.
Paces dropped to 6:40 for the base run and the Garmin started adding threshold runs at 5:40 once a week for either 3x8 min or 1x20 min .. Also a VO2max run would be suggested once a week, but I would ignore those as the thought of running 1 min reps was too much and I'd just do a base run instead.
Gamin had me running 5 days a week.
Brought my 5k down to 27:00 during those 6 months (Copenhagen has a yearly cooperate 5x5 km in August where +100k runners participate for their workplace)
-
Anyways .. Discovered this thread and NSA after running for 6 months like this and having a weekly mileage of 25-30 km.
I'm still running 5 days a week and mileage is the same.
The difference between this and the garmin suggestion is that the base runs have gotten slower and are not around 8:00, but the 3 SubT runs (Saturday, Tuesday and Thursday) around 6:00 just f... with me.
I quickly got Achilles pain. That is almost gone now, but I'm often sore in my ankles and under my feet.
I'm not sure running at the SubT paces is so risk free as everyone makes it out to be. Sure most here are seasoned runners, but for older noobs like me it might be too much.
So maybe it makes good sense to just run easy for a couple of months .. or run truly easy in 8:00 combined with semi-easy at 6:40-7:00 on the "SubT" days and just concentrate on increasing mileage instead?
-
BUT ... My biggest worry is that the problem will still be there in 3 months time when I again try to incorporate faster paces???
Lactrace is generic. People still dont understand how to individualize training paces.
When it comes to NSA everyone is always "People can't keep their paces in the assigned ranges"
Might be that I'm old (50), maybe it's just being used to running with a Garmin watch telling me what to do ... or maybe I'm just an outlier, but I don't feel that at all.
But I do wonder whether the SubT paces given by Lactrace etc really are as risk free as everyone seems to thing?
-
Anyways .. I started running in the spring and would just do whatever my Garmin suggested .. That was a first base running at 7:15/km and a bit of 9:00 recovery running. It had me running +20 km a week fairly quickly.
Paces dropped to 6:40 for the base run and the Garmin started adding threshold runs at 5:40 once a week for either 3x8 min or 1x20 min .. Also a VO2max run would be suggested once a week, but I would ignore those as the thought of running 1 min reps was too much and I'd just do a base run instead.
Gamin had me running 5 days a week.
Brought my 5k down to 27:00 during those 6 months (Copenhagen has a yearly cooperate 5x5 km in August where +100k runners participate for their workplace)
-
Anyways .. Discovered this thread and NSA after running for 6 months like this and having a weekly mileage of 25-30 km.
I'm still running 5 days a week and mileage is the same.
The difference between this and the garmin suggestion is that the base runs have gotten slower and are not around 8:00, but the 3 SubT runs (Saturday, Tuesday and Thursday) around 6:00 just f... with me.
I quickly got Achilles pain. That is almost gone now, but I'm often sore in my ankles and under my feet.
I'm not sure running at the SubT paces is so risk free as everyone makes it out to be. Sure most here are seasoned runners, but for older noobs like me it might be too much.
So maybe it makes good sense to just run easy for a couple of months .. or run truly easy in 8:00 combined with semi-easy at 6:40-7:00 on the "SubT" days and just concentrate on increasing mileage instead?
-
BUT ... My biggest worry is that the problem will still be there in 3 months time when I again try to incorporate faster paces???
I found lactrace’s ranges too aggressive, especially as I rapidly improved my 5k time in the span of a month (hadn’t used lactrace in a while but figured I’d check—still too fast). I just calculate my ceiling for each rep distance based on a race equivalent calculator (McMillan works best for me, since it skews more conservative when predicting longer races from shorter results). Happy to explain more in-depth, though it’s basically what’s been covered since page 1 or 2.
Key is also, and this has been said ad nauseum but always bears repeating, those are ceilings. For example, after my last TT a little over a month ago, my own calculation of my new 3min. rep pace (based on estimated 1hr race pace, not lactrace) was 6:17/mi. I’d routinely been starting workouts in the low 6:40s and working down to low 6:30s. If I’d instantly started trying to run all 10 reps at 6:17, I’d last a couple weeks and then get hurt or tired. It’s only been the last couple weeks that I’ve felt comfortable hitting my last rep in 6:17-20, which puts my HR right at my estimated LTHR. Yesterday was the first workout where all my reps were under 6:30/mi., and the last one was 6:18. Average was 6:25. For reference, lactrace says my range should’ve been 6:12-23/mi. for over a month now. Preposterous.
Lactrace also says my easy pace is 8:41/mi. No. I’m in the 9s, occasionally 8:50s on a cool day with the wind at my back. Cap it at 70% HR. I’m actually preachy about this now, since last year I was less conservative about pacing and pushed myself right into an injury. This year I’ve gone from 19:20s (June) to 18:0s (early October) to probably sub-18 (this week or next) despite a couple down weeks for travel/sickness. Didn’t realize this reply would be so long, but looking at lactrace again got me heated lol. Probably fine for some people, but it’d have me toasted.
Yes, this is all good info. I see this all the time on the Reddit thread, people thinking they need to constantly calibrate their planned workout paces, worrying about LT1 vs LT2, running time trials or races every 4 weeks or so to recalibrate. You don't need to do any of that stuff, in fact it will probably be counterproductive if you don't learn how to run at the appropriate intensities.
As for Lactrace, it's just an approximate ballpark range. The most important thing for anyone is to not force the pace.
I'm with you on starting each workout on the slower side and picking up steadily. To me this is the best way to keep it under control. Usually what ends up happening is the pace gets progressively faster with seemingly the same or less effort. I did 5*6 minutes today and my last rep was 18 seconds per mile faster than the first. Almost every one of my workouts follows a similar pattern.
When it comes to NSA everyone is always "People can't keep their paces in the assigned ranges"
Might be that I'm old (50), maybe it's just being used to running with a Garmin watch telling me what to do ... or maybe I'm just an outlier, but I don't feel that at all.
But I do wonder whether the SubT paces given by Lactrace etc really are as risk free as everyone seems to thing?
-
Anyways .. I started running in the spring and would just do whatever my Garmin suggested .. That was a first base running at 7:15/km and a bit of 9:00 recovery running. It had me running +20 km a week fairly quickly.
Paces dropped to 6:40 for the base run and the Garmin started adding threshold runs at 5:40 once a week for either 3x8 min or 1x20 min .. Also a VO2max run would be suggested once a week, but I would ignore those as the thought of running 1 min reps was too much and I'd just do a base run instead.
Gamin had me running 5 days a week.
Brought my 5k down to 27:00 during those 6 months (Copenhagen has a yearly cooperate 5x5 km in August where +100k runners participate for their workplace)
-
Anyways .. Discovered this thread and NSA after running for 6 months like this and having a weekly mileage of 25-30 km.
I'm still running 5 days a week and mileage is the same.
The difference between this and the garmin suggestion is that the base runs have gotten slower and are not around 8:00, but the 3 SubT runs (Saturday, Tuesday and Thursday) around 6:00 just f... with me.
I quickly got Achilles pain. That is almost gone now, but I'm often sore in my ankles and under my feet.
I'm not sure running at the SubT paces is so risk free as everyone makes it out to be. Sure most here are seasoned runners, but for older noobs like me it might be too much.
So maybe it makes good sense to just run easy for a couple of months .. or run truly easy in 8:00 combined with semi-easy at 6:40-7:00 on the "SubT" days and just concentrate on increasing mileage instead?
-
BUT ... My biggest worry is that the problem will still be there in 3 months time when I again try to incorporate faster paces???
To add to what WashedAF said, Your case might be at or even below the lower limit of where vanilla NSM works, and in my opinion, some adaptations might make sense in your case. Let me explain:
- relatively new to running. Before NSM even was a thing, there were some generally accepted knowledge about aerobic base and more importantly tendons and muscle resitance/strength taking time to build. Time as in more than a full year. You are at risk in the phase, especially if past 30. Take your time, build into the milage first without too much intensity. Then you build intensity into your stabilized milage. Again take your time. This should be a plan over more than one year.
- 5 sessions a week. In my opinion, 3 sub T for 5 sessions total simply doesn't work. I'd keep it at 2 subT sessions max and I don't think I am alone in that opinion. At your level and your volume, easy running and 1 sub T would already help you improve while not being too agressive for the body. Also do less reps than the vanilla schedulle and maybe longer recoveries between reps (not too long either, you don't want your HR to drop too much). You don't want to have sub T representing more than 25% of your total volume and in my opinion that's higher priority than doing 3 sub T sessions.
What I would do in your case would be maybe to run easy only until you don't feel any niggle, then work up into one sub T and maybe start adding some length to one of the runs progressively. You might as well decide one long run every other week can be enough, and that could work, but don't suddenly do a 90 minutes long run if your longest of the last few mounths was 50 minutes. For the sub T start conservatively. Something like a 4x4 minutes with 2 minutes rests is already some interesting stimulus. Try to keep at it several weeks, then see if you can try to have 2 second sub T. Maybe another rep length for variety, but keep it at a reasonnable volume. You could add reps later on, when you are certain you can sustain that training.
I dunno ... Garmin had me doing the following for 6 months:
Long day - 50 min@base pace
Day 2 - 40 min@base pace
Day 3 - 20min@base pace + 20min@threshold
Day 4 35 min@base pace
Day 5 - 35min@base pace at first then it started to suggest VO2max work that I never bothered to do, so would replace it with another base run of 35 minutes
Base pace was started at 7:10, but at the end it was 6:40, so I was doing 7-8 km day 1 and 3 and and 4-5 km on the base days.
-
Going from that to doing all easy with just one subT feels too much of a step back, but yeah .. It might be better to keep it at two subT session and 3 easy days, even if it probably is a lower training load than previously and just get mileage up over the course of the winter :)
Do Saturday and Wednesday with some intensity and just chill Sunday, Tuesday and Thursday.
I found lactrace’s ranges too aggressive, especially as I rapidly improved my 5k time in the span of a month (hadn’t used lactrace in a while but figured I’d check—still too fast). I just calculate my ceiling for each rep distance based on a race equivalent calculator (McMillan works best for me, since it skews more conservative when predicting longer races from shorter results). Happy to explain more in-depth, though it’s basically what’s been covered since page 1 or 2.
Key is also, and this has been said ad nauseum but always bears repeating, those are ceilings. For example, after my last TT a little over a month ago, my own calculation of my new 3min. rep pace (based on estimated 1hr race pace, not lactrace) was 6:17/mi. I’d routinely been starting workouts in the low 6:40s and working down to low 6:30s. If I’d instantly started trying to run all 10 reps at 6:17, I’d last a couple weeks and then get hurt or tired. It’s only been the last couple weeks that I’ve felt comfortable hitting my last rep in 6:17-20, which puts my HR right at my estimated LTHR. Yesterday was the first workout where all my reps were under 6:30/mi., and the last one was 6:18. Average was 6:25. For reference, lactrace says my range should’ve been 6:12-23/mi. for over a month now. Preposterous.
Lactrace also says my easy pace is 8:41/mi. No. I’m in the 9s, occasionally 8:50s on a cool day with the wind at my back. Cap it at 70% HR. I’m actually preachy about this now, since last year I was less conservative about pacing and pushed myself right into an injury. This year I’ve gone from 19:20s (June) to 18:0s (early October) to probably sub-18 (this week or next) despite a couple down weeks for travel/sickness. Didn’t realize this reply would be so long, but looking at lactrace again got me heated lol. Probably fine for some people, but it’d have me toasted.
Yes, this is all good info. I see this all the time on the Reddit thread, people thinking they need to constantly calibrate their planned workout paces, worrying about LT1 vs LT2, running time trials or races every 4 weeks or so to recalibrate. You don't need to do any of that stuff, in fact it will probably be counterproductive if you don't learn how to run at the appropriate intensities.
As for Lactrace, it's just an approximate ballpark range. The most important thing for anyone is to not force the pace.
I'm with you on starting each workout on the slower side and picking up steadily. To me this is the best way to keep it under control. Usually what ends up happening is the pace gets progressively faster with seemingly the same or less effort. I did 5*6 minutes today and my last rep was 18 seconds per mile faster than the first. Almost every one of my workouts follows a similar pattern.
Yeah .. Must admit that I thought the Lactrace paces where safe paces ... They're probably not and more on the aggro side.
I'm going to pull back a good bit ... and maybe just do two quality days a week instead of 3 for a while
I'll jump in looking for some feedback. Cliff notes version, used NSM in 2024, went from a 44-low minute 10k to a 39-high 10k between May and October, dealt with some injuries and loss of fitness over the winter.
42M, Max HR 184ish, LTHR 172 (by Friel test). Started again this May and have managed between 55-65 mile weeks since then, with about 15 miles being subT. Monday - 4x2k (Max HR-164ish BPM), Wednesday - 8x1k (Max HR 167-169), Friday - 2x4k (Max HR 158-162). Easy runs around 9:30-10:15 @ 115-122BPM (70% Max is 128 BPM).
I live where is hot and humid all summer so I started out with my 1k reps around 4:25 and they didn't really move too much all summer. Once cooler weather they started dropping pretty quickly and before the same October 10k they settled around 4:00 a rep, same Max HR of about 168. Ran a 39:15 on that 10k course (I think the course is a bit short though, maybe more like 39:30 or something). Was hoping for under 39, but whatever, I wasn't too disappointed and after the winter injuries it was at least nice to run a little bit faster than the previous year.
My paces continue to drop and the last two week the 1k reps were sitting at about 3:55 or so with the same HR at the end of them. One of my goals this year was to stay healthy through the summer and enter fall/winter and actually run a race or TT ever 3ish weeks. So I did my Wednesday workout, cut my Thursday and Friday easy runs in half and solo TTed a 5k. Was hoping for something around 19 flat. Ended up at 19:20 (3:50, 3:52, 3:54, 3:54, 3:52). Looking at my HR during the race I was at LTHR at the end of the first K and there was a nice steady rise peaking at just under Max HR with 182 right at the end. After the first K, I thought I had picked the right pace, but clearly I feel off a bit, basically back to where I was currently running my 1k reps at).
I've been mulling it over a bit and am entertaining a few different options:
1. I just need to race more above threshold. I've actually raced maybe 4 times over the last two years, and 10ks at my pace are basically threshold work.
2. Maybe my watch isn't measuring my reps correctly and I'm actually a bit short and really running my workouts at a slower pace and overestimating my fitness.
3. Maybe my LTHR isn't accurate and I'm running my reps too fast and not getting full recovery.
Theories aside, I'm gonna do another 5k TT or race in a few weeks, because I feel strong and healthy going into the winter, which was something I didn't manage last year.
To test out the idea that I'm running the SubT too hard, I plugged my TT into Lactrace and it spit out splits about 10-12 seconds slowed at each length than I'm currently running, so this week I backed off to those paces. On my 2K running at 4:12/km my HR got to about 155, on the 1ks at 4:06 my HR got to 159. Both of those are nowhere near what I believe my Friel test indicates is my Threshold. At the end of the summer I ran a hard 12 miler course with a friend (decent downhill) and held an average 165 for 85 minutes (closer to 168 for the last 40), so while I haven't redone a Friel in a while, I'm pretty sure the 172 that I was using isn't too far from Threshold.
Anyway, I'm gonna stick with the plan of 5k TTs every three weeks and see what shakes out over the winter, but does anyone have any thoughts on if should I keep my SubT paces where there were and just assume I need to relearn how it feels to run above threshold, or should I back off to less aggressive paces based on the 5k TT?
I'll jump in looking for some feedback. Cliff notes version, used NSM in 2024, went from a 44-low minute 10k to a 39-high 10k between May and October, dealt with some injuries and loss of fitness over the winter.
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Nice job getting back and making progress.
I can’t answer but I’ve been wondering about something that your situation calls to mind. Sometimes due to injury or illness and sometimes due to travel for work and other busy weeks, I’ll wind up with anything from shorter training interruptions (like a week) to longer ones (over a month). Sometimes, that’s getting in like 10-15% of usual volume and sometimes no running at all.
How quickly do I lose fitness, how much might I lose, and how much is this holding me back? The last time I started NSM, I had an interruption after 5 weeks and didn’t have enough time to see progress (didn’t even get in a second race to check).
I feel like I might just wind up spinning my wheels, or just going through cycles of losing fitness and trying to regain it instead of really improving much. Around 19 min 5k, give or take some seconds, for my last 2 decent races in the last 14 months, in case that matters.
Personally, I’d try the 5K again and see if you can hit 3:50 the first 2k and try to accelerate from there. I had a tough time keeping up with 5k pace when I hadn’t run one in a while. Based on your 10k and the better weather, your ST reps shouldn’t be too fast if they feel good and your HR is fine—I wouldn’t slow down based on one meh time trial if everything else seems right.
This post was edited 1 minute after it was posted.
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