You need to keep in mind that a lot of these NSA runners, like sirpoc (or I suppose myself), were already decent runners when they got on NSA.
It is not that hard to think that even a former 1:5x or even ~2:0x 800 guy (or equivalent 1500/mile) could go on run a nice mile time with NSA alone.
But no, if you're starting as a 25-minute runner in the 5k with no faster background (or fast running in other sports), you aren't getting down to a 4:20 mile off of tempos.
I’d like to share my experience (challenges and successes) as a fairly untalented runner trying sweet-spot/NSA training with no exceptional baseline speed or long distance talent (in HS never broke 65 in the 400m, 2:15 in the 800m, 5:00 in the 1600m, or 10:50 in the 3200m). When training 30mpw on a speed program, I’ll be able to sneak under 60 for 400m, but then can barely run a 17:00 for 5000m. When building from that program to a longer distance one (5000-10,000m), I’m usually hitting 70-80mpw and running low-16:00 for 5k and 35:00 for 10k but can barely hit 62 for 400m. In other words, I lose endurance fitness rapidly when focusing on speed and anaerobic power, but lose speed and speed endurance rapidly when training for long distances (even when doing strides and sprints after longer workouts). When switching between these programs in either direction, I can keep some of the benefits for at least a couple months but lose them slowly after that. When doing a hybrid of these programs, I am middling at both short and long distances (vs. focusing on either). It sucks to not have any strengths, but I think I am figuring how to manage it.
Now, I followed “textbook” NSA to the tee for about 18 months (about 50-60mpw with 3x10min, 5x6min, 10x3min sub-T based on periodically updated Friel’s tests) and had similar results as I did with slightly higher mileage programs. Cool to see some aerobic benefits at a tad lower mileage, but I still could not handle faster paces. I tried to do NSA with and without strides over the course of that 18 months, and no matter what, same result when trying to run faster. It was like I was getting stronger (more enduring) but never able to access any speed. Then I thought, maybe I’ll introduce the 25x1min workout instead of the 5x6min workout. As it turns out, this is a magical workout for my physiology. It is speed-endurancey due to the supra-threshold mechanical stress but ultimately still sub-T from a physiological standpoint. All of my paces improved for other sub-T efforts over the next few months, and suddenly I hit PRs in the mile (4:23), 5k (15:05), and 10k (32:12). Kind of crazy. I am thinking now that for my kind of musculature and physiology that favors neither speed nor endurance, the middle ground 25x1min or 25x400m workout is highly valuable because it doesn’t detract from aerobic progress the way that sprints and hill sprints do, but offers plentiful mechanical benefits that some (but not all) people need. I now do one, sometimes two, 25x1min workouts per week (always keeping 3x10min in the mix to counterbalance), and both my aerobic and muscular strength have improved at once it seems. Anyway, long post but when trying to find the right stimulus/load with this kind of method, I have realized through trial and error that for some folks there is utility in considering extra mechanical load to strengthen the muscles alongside the aerobic gains. I’m working on adding a bit extra mileage before extending the sub-T workouts themselves, but for whatever reason have been feeling stronger than ever doing both the shortest sub-T reps with the longest sub-T reps each week (plus a third sub-T that is either 5x6min or another 25x1min).
Learned a lot from the folks in this thread, and although I nearly thought I was a non-responder, I found an NSA variant that works for me super well while keeping the other central tenets.
What pace would the 25x1min workout be? 5K pace? usual 60s rest?
I'm currently experimenting different workouts and would like to try this.
LT1.5 lady always cracks me up. She really doesn't want to be helped.
I've heard the best thing about the upcoming Norwegian singles book, is how sirpoc talks about the mythical LT1.5 intensity. He credits her for all the amazing data with a chaotrer dedication. He then speaks about how some people just can't run easy, it's impossible! And again credits her for extraction of data.
PS, actually legit pumped for the book though. If shirtboy and guys like chillruns are saying it's good, I can't wait.
The "Sirpod" is genius, this would be great if it happened!
I've also found similar in that the vanilla NSA seems to give me threshold lock when it comes to racing, which is great for 10k and above but not for shorter distances. I remember my best times came when I used 2 min reps and 45 sec rest, as like a few have said, 1 min reps don't agree with my hamstrings. After reading these posts I think I'll add these back in and see if they help.
LT1.5 lady always cracks me up. She really doesn't want to be helped.
She can't be helped, neither can the greek. There was a guy in the early days of Strava, didn't listen. Saw recently he ran 1:30 first half of NYC and then finished in 3:20. Everyone tried to help. Some people will never learn.
I follow a lot of people on Strava, the vast majority who have improved have stuck to it and have a back log of well over 6 months with the same, pretty much basic NSM pattern. I think I follow who chillruns is. His progress has been remarkable (marathon coming up?). The more basic you keep it, the better the results seem to be. Who knows why that is. Even the recent posts, as someone else pointed out it's individual and even then, it's 6 out of 7 days almost vanilla.
Totally agree with this. The whole method is very un-influencer friendly. You end up changing things for the sake of content. It's silly. There's obviously small tweaks and variations people have made, but it spirals quite quickly. You know longer have this approach.
Btw, sign me up to the "sirpod" where you could spend an hour with a more patient audience drilling down. What he's learned and can share down to the finest detail would be gold.
I follow you on Strava as well, at least I'm pretty sure it's you. Your progress has been nothing short of extraordinary, given your age and what looked like age decline totally turned around. You are a good example of how you replicate vanilla sirpoc, but based on time or time appropriate distance. The other thing I see is 19-21 min 5k runners doing 4x3k and complaining it's hard. No sh*t, Sherlock.
The "Sirpod" is genius, this would be great if it happened!
I've also found similar in that the vanilla NSA seems to give me threshold lock when it comes to racing, which is great for 10k and above but not for shorter distances. I remember my best times came when I used 2 min reps and 45 sec rest, as like a few have said, 1 min reps don't agree with my hamstrings. After reading these posts I think I'll add these back in and see if they help.
90s seems to be the cut off point for my old legs. Even if I actually bring down the intensity state (so faster mechanics, but less lactate), my legs are completely trashed the next day. I've tried 45/15 at around 5-8k pace , lactate really is fine even by the end but my legs feel shredded which lasts for 2-3 days. I have done this on a Saturday and the recovery has spilled over even until the Tuesday. Yet anything above 10k pace even with slightly longer reps, it's really not bad. It's crazy really how that small difference for a lot of us, seems to play out. Not to want to just repeat what sirpoc has said on some pods, but I guess it's risk Vs reward and that is the part of and why you change things up, you have to work out yourself. For me at this point, it's easier and safer just to go full vanilla. Especially as I am improving still, why change it up, right?
LT1.5 lady always cracks me up. She really doesn't want to be helped.
She can't be helped, neither can the greek. There was a guy in the early days of Strava, didn't listen. Saw recently he ran 1:30 first half of NYC and then finished in 3:20. Everyone tried to help. Some people will never learn.
I follow a lot of people on Strava, the vast majority who have improved have stuck to it and have a back log of well over 6 months with the same, pretty much basic NSM pattern. I think I follow who chillruns is. His progress has been remarkable (marathon coming up?). The more basic you keep it, the better the results seem to be. Who knows why that is. Even the recent posts, as someone else pointed out it's individual and even then, it's 6 out of 7 days almost vanilla.
I wish there were more 50+ runners using NSM or, at least, more public about it. I'd like to see how it's working for those of us in the more senior divisions. For now, I feel like I'm holding serve - not really improving, not really diminishing. Maybe that's something in itself though at 59 y.o.
The apex of any Sirpod would be a sit down with Peter Crouch.
Sir Peter of Crouch, right? I seem to remember that's where it comes from. I honestly think the type of podcast Peter Crouch does, he would actually love this story, that he's effectively been part of a running craze. Would be right up their street.
I wish there were more 50+ runners using NSM or, at least, more public about it. I'd like to see how it's working for those of us in the more senior divisions. For now, I feel like I'm holding serve - not really improving, not really diminishing. Maybe that's something in itself though at 59 y.o.
I'm in my 50s. If you are holding steady, you are effectively improving. I've dived off a cliff from 51. At 54 I'm reversing the regression. That, in itself is remarkable in my opinion and I'm genuinely frustrated this type of method wasn't laid out as an idiots guide 20 years ago and I could have cashed in, in my peak.
Sir Peter of Crouch, right? I seem to remember that's where it comes from. I honestly think the type of podcast Peter Crouch does, he would actually love this story, that he's effectively been part of a running craze. Would be right up their street.
I believe so. Stuck with an online username from over 20+ years ago and he's a big football/ Portsmouth fan.
I still have the email with "Savage_G" in it. From when I thought Savage Garden were the best band I'd ever heard, circa 1998 and I'm ashamed to tell anyone why my email is what it is. Hell, even Randy Savage would be a better story, just about.
I'm in my 50s. If you are holding steady, you are effectively improving. I've dived off a cliff from 51. At 54 I'm reversing the regression. That, in itself is remarkable in my opinion and I'm genuinely frustrated this type of method wasn't laid out as an idiots guide 20 years ago and I could have cashed in, in my peak.
"I'm genuinely frustrated this type of method wasn't laid out as an idiots guide 20 years ago"
Yeah, you and me both. I ran a 1:45 half last January and just ran a 1:46. I feel like I should have better than a 1:45 in me, but so far that hasn't been borne out. See what happens again in January at Houston Half.
Sir Peter of Crouch, right? I seem to remember that's where it comes from. I honestly think the type of podcast Peter Crouch does, he would actually love this story, that he's effectively been part of a running craze. Would be right up their street.
Wait, what? That's what sirpoc means? One of my favourite podcasts and love this method. That's potentially my mind blown.
Was able to do 30x400 down to 5k pace with 30 sec rest (opening 15 were at around 1:11, and last 15 were around 1:08). Had the same experience; legs were absolutely trashed for about 3 days after, but barring leg weakness when starting the rep, lactate was mild. How much of an indicator is this of my 5k pr pace; could I run a faster time, therefore decreasing reps, rest, and increasing speed?
Was able to do 30x400 down to 5k pace with 30 sec rest (opening 15 were at around 1:11, and last 15 were around 1:08). Had the same experience; legs were absolutely trashed for about 3 days after, but barring leg weakness when starting the rep, lactate was mild. How much of an indicator is this of my 5k pr pace; could I run a faster time, therefore decreasing reps, rest, and increasing speed?
30 x 400 is an overkill amount of reps imo (unless you are trying to be like Zatopek) and whatever you average would have to be definitely slower than your true 5k race pace. Traditionally with 25 reps you'd either start at 10k pace and work down to 5k, or stay at 10k.
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You need to tell me how you getting these prices so low?! For all 3 it’s a total of £247
maybe more interested in your discount method then the singles method at this point haha
I'm in the U.S. but bought the same trio yesterday (Hare Pro 8, Feidian 5 Challenger and Feidian 5 Elite). Yesterday was probably the optimal day to buy because of the 11.11 AliExpress sale AND Rakuten was offering 30% cash back on AliExpress purchases. My total for the 3 was around 200 USD, not far off from the poster you replied to.
I looked today and still see really good prices. You just need to try out which coupons and cashback works best. You can find the coupons directly on AliExpress or cashback sites like Rakuten have their own.
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