Modifying the Norwegian approach to lower mileage

I recommend Haribo fangtastics for pre-run carbs.

Cheap and easy to find.

My issue with this is that Sirpoc and several others have stepped away from endurance training for, in some cases years. I get that is somebody ran sub-2:00 in their teens, 20s or 30s and keep training they could maintain some of that speed/fitness. But taking a several month or year break in your 30s would take that speed away.

There is an injury risk when hammering the last 200m of the 5k TT, when you are already fatigued. Probably more so for, older runners, and those more FT. Some people may not fit in a race monthly.

Is this injury risk not lessened, if the muscle fibres are exercised at this sort of pace more regularly, and in a fresh state?

Note, most are running their easy runs much slower than before, some excruciatingly slow, so the neuromuscular component is totally absent on the majority of their running.

Not looking to question the wisdom on here, but would like a better analysis of the “risk”.

Strides are ridiculously overrated.

I’m sorry for another shoe post as I’m sceptical about turning this into a shoe thread but I had to share. AliExpress are having a big sale starting today and I just purchased the Li-Ning Red Hare Pro 8, Feidian Challenger 5 and Feidian Elite 5 for a combined total of £169. This is £50 less than I paid for my Adiós Pro 4’s, and for a full rotation of shoes it’s absolutely ridiculous. I already have a pair of the Red Hare and Challengers and they are phenomenal shoes, up there with the very best I’ve worn.

What store on AliExpress did you use to purchase them from?

Sirpoc. The man who took down the hobby jogging coaching industry, exposed shoe tube grifters and shill frauds and created more jobs in Chinese shoe factories. A cross between Tyler Durden and Chairman Mao.

Always the Li-Ning Official store. The one with over 700,000 followers.

Do any of you think NSM will affect the world of personal coaches/runfluencers as the method becomes more popular?

Sure, but I think it will be a net positive. It simplifies training. I'm not stupid or egotistical enough to fully invest in my previous methods if there might be on that is more efficient for any athlete. I plan to implement this for some of my runners that are in transitionary periods in racing, as its a great way to consistently build fitness and really quite scalable across mileage. It doesn't require the nuance a specific marathon build or prep for a track event might need. They don't need me as often for weekly training, but can still come to me with questions or for advice, lifting plan questions, etc.

This post has a guide to Chinese shoes for those wondering:

https://www.reddit.com/r/RunningShoeGeeks/comments/1i0b365/chinese_shoes/

Honestly, if the guy wanted to, sirpoc could absolutely ruin these guys. Start a channel and it basically puts a lot of them to bed. I don't think he will though. I will echo others from the previous pages, I don't see him making YouTube content. Just not his style. For real though there are grifters looking at this thread and worrying, we've seen a number of them try and come here and de-rail things. Not only because there is nothing for them here, but it makes a mockery out of a lot of the pure nonsense these clowns put out. There's a few good ones out there but for the most part, online influencers, coaches, shoetubers are the absolute opposite of this little part of the running internet (but growing, not as much of a niche secret 2.5 years on!)

I do, however thing he should do a podcast. I'm sure even if he doesn't have the tech skills someone can produce, set up up and it would absolutely take off. That's where his space would be in my opinion. Even talking to some of the characters from the thread would be really interested. Other people's experiences. Probably won't happen but then again the book was some ideas people threw around they'd like and next thing we knew it was happening. It would be top of my pod sub.

The thread is over 2 years old. For those getting itchy waiting on the book, having a fresh read through from page 1 of the thread can be refreshing. In the early pages, none of us probably realised how important this thread was going to become to us.

I think it’s more complicated than that. I’m not entirely disagreeing but I’ve seen first hand 40+ YO people in our run group step away for months, even a year+, rock up to the track and dust me and rip 68s, admittedly fading hard towards the end of the set.

Great timing. I was just about to post asking how/where people are getting information on these shoes as what I've seen on Aliexpress is minimal or non-existent. Is there a reliable source of information or are people piecing things together from posts like that?

Second, I didn't see a reference in that post to support shoes for over-pronators. That's my main requirement. Haven't seen anything on Aliexpress yet either. Does anyone know a Chinese support shoe I can research? Anything like the Brooks Adrenaline would be great.

Lastly, returns - how often are people returning shoes because of poor fit or feel, and how's that working out?

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You're vastly overestimating the average Youtube fan's desire for knowledge and willingness to commit to something as uninteresting as vanilla NSA. Sirpoc on YouTube would be pearls before swine. The algorithm creates a vicious cycle where creators are perversely incentivised to pursue unrealistic goals, constantly change the focus of their training and take unnecessary risks. A clickbait title for an injury update would perform considerably better than the 50th consecutive weekly 6 x 1600m session.

Look at A Serious Hobbyjogger (who I think is one of the best YouTubers, but still faces the same pressures to generate interest as any other channel). He had incredible success following NSA, created a YouTube channel off the back of that. He then opted for a more traditional marathon build instead of using the sirpoc special block. Had a pass-mark performance (we'll never know the counterfactual), and is now advocating that hobby joggers running 60k per week should drop their sessions and start doubling 3 days a week. The pressure to create content will always result in the pursuit of novelty over consistency which is the antithesis of NSA.

Some hobby joggers I follow who are part of a local running project and working with a coach for the first time have been doing workouts that look very familiar from this thread.

I’d like to share my experience (challenges and successes) as a fairly untalented runner trying sweet-spot/NSA training with no exceptional baseline speed or long distance talent (in HS never broke 65 in the 400m, 2:15 in the 800m, 5:00 in the 1600m, or 10:50 in the 3200m). When training 30mpw on a speed program, I’ll be able to sneak under 60 for 400m, but then can barely run a 17:00 for 5000m. When building from that program to a longer distance one (5000-10,000m), I’m usually hitting 70-80mpw and running low-16:00 for 5k and 35:00 for 10k but can barely hit 62 for 400m. In other words, I lose endurance fitness rapidly when focusing on speed and anaerobic power, but lose speed and speed endurance rapidly when training for long distances (even when doing strides and sprints after longer workouts). When switching between these programs in either direction, I can keep some of the benefits for at least a couple months but lose them slowly after that. When doing a hybrid of these programs, I am middling at both short and long distances (vs. focusing on either). It sucks to not have any strengths, but I think I am figuring how to manage it.

Now, I followed “textbook” NSA to the tee for about 18 months (about 50-60mpw with 3x10min, 5x6min, 10x3min sub-T based on periodically updated Friel’s tests) and had similar results as I did with slightly higher mileage programs. Cool to see some aerobic benefits at a tad lower mileage, but I still could not handle faster paces. I tried to do NSA with and without strides over the course of that 18 months, and no matter what, same result when trying to run faster. It was like I was getting stronger (more enduring) but never able to access any speed. Then I thought, maybe I’ll introduce the 25x1min workout instead of the 5x6min workout. As it turns out, this is a magical workout for my physiology. It is speed-endurancey due to the supra-threshold mechanical stress but ultimately still sub-T from a physiological standpoint. All of my paces improved for other sub-T efforts over the next few months, and suddenly I hit PRs in the mile (4:23), 5k (15:05), and 10k (32:12). Kind of crazy. I am thinking now that for my kind of musculature and physiology that favors neither speed nor endurance, the middle ground 25x1min or 25x400m workout is highly valuable because it doesn’t detract from aerobic progress the way that sprints and hill sprints do, but offers plentiful mechanical benefits that some (but not all) people need. I now do one, sometimes two, 25x1min workouts per week (always keeping 3x10min in the mix to counterbalance), and both my aerobic and muscular strength have improved at once it seems. Anyway, long post but when trying to find the right stimulus/load with this kind of method, I have realized through trial and error that for some folks there is utility in considering extra mechanical load to strengthen the muscles alongside the aerobic gains. I’m working on adding a bit extra mileage before extending the sub-T workouts themselves, but for whatever reason have been feeling stronger than ever doing both the shortest sub-T reps with the longest sub-T reps each week (plus a third sub-T that is either 5x6min or another 25x1min).

Learned a lot from the folks in this thread, and although I nearly thought I was a non-responder, I found an NSA variant that works for me super well while keeping the other central tenets.