Sebastian Coe vs Said Aouita - 1500/mile race - Who would win?

Were you an elite athlete or coach back in that era? Are you saying then that the British runners of that era weren't using any PEDs at all, but Aouita probably was, and certainly the Soviet block nations?

It would be interesting to hear from a non-British elite athlete who competed back in that era or a coach and get their unbiased opinion on the prevalence of PED use during the 80s. ?

The evidence of Coe blood doping is near zero, however 1980s athletes should be suspected of steriods and pain killers use. Leitao's 5k pb in proportion to his other bests, particularly his 3k best suggests some sort of one off mass endurance gain. Lopes and Mamede are also ripe for suspicion.

Walker has said repeatedly the 5000m in 1984 was a terrible mistake when he was in 3:49 mile shape. He said that he wouldn't have gotten 1st or 2nd but bronze was a definite possibility.

Curious...what's the evidence that makes it "near zero?"

foxy loxy wrote:

Subway Surfers wrote:

The evidence of Coe blood doping is near zero, however 1980s athletes should be suspected of steriods and pain killers use. Leitao's 5k pb in proportion to his other bests, particularly his 3k best suggests some sort of one off mass endurance gain. Lopes and Mamede are also ripe for suspicion.

Curious...what's the evidence that makes it "near zero?"

It's clear to any native English reader that he said there is zero evidence of Coe blood doping. He did not say that there is evidence that there is zero chance Coe doped.

lean to read wrote:

foxy loxy wrote:

Curious...what's the evidence that makes it "near zero?"

It's clear to any native English reader that he said there is zero evidence of Coe blood doping. He did not say that there is evidence that there is zero chance Coe doped.

Your second statement doesn't make any sense and sounds weird at face value (evidence that there is zero chance that someone doped?).

On the first statement, if Subway is saying there is "zero evidence of Coe blood doping" then why are some posters here saying there is some evidence that Coe may have used blood transfusions. If you go back through some of these posts, you will see who is saying Coe may have blood doped as well as their reasons for their suspicion. I have a hunch Subway knows what those suspicions are being postulated by those posters (Subway posts on this thread regularly), so I'm mearly asking him why he differs from these other posters. ?

Well you need to learn to speak English. If you agree that Subway is saying 'there is no evidence', why are you asking him 'what's the evidence'? And given that Subway was replying to my posts in which I detailed how it's extremely unlikely to get an infection from autologous blood transfusions (which most agree was the way athletes blood doped back then), then that's an argument that the 'claim' (not evidence) that Coe doped because he got an infection in 83 is balderdash. So why have you chosen to ignore that?

You've been flogging this Coe horse for a while now. When are you retiring?

In regard to an unsubstantiated point you made a while back - about Aouita running 3:40something in B races in 81 - he ran a 3:37 in 1980 - at age 20 - about 3 years after he started racing competitively.

sconehead wrote:

Coevett "I'm not racist but" wrote:

Well you need to learn to speak English. If you agree that Subway is saying 'there is no evidence', why are you asking him 'what's the evidence'? And given that Subway was replying to my posts in which I detailed how it's extremely unlikely to get an infection from autologous blood transfusions (which most agree was the way athletes blood doped back then), then that's an argument that the 'claim' (not evidence) that Coe doped because he got an infection in 83 is balderdash. So why have you chosen to ignore that?

You've been flogging this Coe horse for a while now. When are you retiring?

In regard to an unsubstantiated point you made a while back - about Aouita running 3:40something in B races in 81 - he ran a 3:37 in 1980 - at age 20 - about 3 years after he started racing competitively.

You mean when am I retiring from hitting back unsubstantiated doping allegations against Coe and returning them with interest against the troll doping apologist heroes such as Aouita, Morcelli, and El G?

My point was not unsubstantiated. He typically ran 3:40 in b races up to the age of 23 when he suddenly became a world leader after one winter's move to Italy. These are facts, also stated by respected author on Moroccan training methods (and he actually thinks El G was clean but Aouita dirty).

The fact that Aouita ran 3:37 at 20 and didn't improve until 3 years later when he suddenly was able to churn out 3:30 times says it all. That this is your best 'evidence' that my claims are 'unsubstantiated' says even more.

Aouita's seasons bests

age 20 : 3:37

age 21 : 3:37

age 22 : 3:38

Discovers 'secret training methods' in the winter of 82/83 in Italy.

age 23: 3:30

age 24: 3:30 (running the 5000m in LA)

age 25 3:29 (never ran faster)

Seb Coe (on Aouita's countryman Ramzi) - 'if circumstantial evidence were permissable...'

Fast times in early June and equally fast times in early September. The gains from a transfusion are unlikely to last any where near that long of a time, though Aragon could prove me wrong on this (I won't mind). I'm actually not defending Coe but two things work against this hypothesis and as I have repeatedly stated he may have taken roids throughout his career and transfusions at other stages in his career but the period of 1979-1981 don't support this unless he mastered repeated in-season transfusions, which is extremely dangerous. So in 1979, he broke the 800m WR 1st on July 5th in Norway, but he was staying with Dixon, Quax and Walker, who were the leading crusaders against the use of transfusions. He likely arrived in Oslo a couple days before, so add in a day for travel, his theoretical transfusion would have had to last longer than the 3 WRs in 41, more like 45 days to avoid showing Dixon et al he was a blood doper (or they were just hypocrites and condoned it, but I doubt this). 1979 is the most plausible season pre-1986 for blood doping because in 1980 he ran his fastest 800m for the year in early June (1:44) at some crumby north of England meet (no pacing) and in mid August he almost broke the 1500m WR, in between this was the Moscow Games where he ran terribly in the 800m (transfusion didn't work that day). In 1981, he ran fast on the 3rd of June over 800m without pacing (1:44 flat), broke the World mile record in late August and won the World Cup in early September. That is a long extended period. The other thing is that in countries like the US & Britain and other western media driven countries, 'people speak' and are incentivised to rat each other out. Surely someone has come forward to the Sun, Mirror, Telegraph etc to say "I gave Coe/Ovett/Cram X during X" or "I helped him do X." Then we have Alan Wells being exposed by the Panorama expose regarding the 1980 UK team doctor giving him roids. This shows that roids were around and it is possible that their best longer runners were on them, but the epo taking journalist never found Coe or Ovett on that list. Actually Britain has a long history of doping in sprinting. Personally I am far more suspicious of Moorcroft in 1982, Jones in the marathon, Paula, Holmes and Mo of blood doping than I am of Coe and Ovett. Though one can't rule out Ovett in 1984 as a transfusion gone wrong Tyler Hamilton-style, but the evidence might not support this. Ovett often ran well in early September when he needed to be at his best in mid July or early August unless he somehow cheated for money and not the glory, again this doesn't make sense for him to use transfusions and from 1977-to Coe beating him in Moscow, he was undefeated no matter when in the year.

Coevett wrote:

Aouita's seasons bests

age 20 : 3:37

age 21 : 3:37

age 22 : 3:38

Discovers 'secret training methods' in the winter of 82/83 in Italy.

age 23: 3:30

age 24: 3:30 (running the 5000m in LA)

age 25 3:29 (never ran faster)

Seb Coe (on Aouita's countryman Ramzi) - 'if circumstantial evidence were permissable...'

Filip Ingebrigtsen's season's bests

age 20 : 3:38

age 21 : 3:40

age 22 : 3:42

age 23: 3:32 (10 seconds in one season! A drop of 6 seconds from his PB. And not even in Monaco's fast track/race)

age 24: 3:32

age 25 3:30

So what?

Athletes can have huge improvements due to a variety of reasons.

Subway, all good points, except for this one here:

Subway Surfers wrote:

The other thing is that in countries like the US & Britain and other western media driven countries, 'people speak' and are incentivised to rat each other out. Surely someone has come forward to the Sun, Mirror, Telegraph etc to say "I gave Coe/Ovett/Cram X during X" or "I helped him do X."

Not necessarily. See for example how long Team Telekom was doping via the Freiburg University Hospital without a leak, and how Balco was discovered, and those were much bigger teams, with quite a number of support personnel.

As for blood doping, have you seen the Austrian who simply stopped on the autobahn to give himself transfusions? You don't need to do that in your home in front of your roommates.

Or this one: "discovery of discarded blood transfusion equipment at the house used by Austrian cross-country skiers during the Salt Lake City Games" - no prior rumors, no consequences thereafter...

Fun story, actually. One of the two involved medal winners, Hoffmann (silver over 30 km), was cleared back in 2002, then got his silver medal upgraded to gold in 2004 because of DQ'ed drug cheat Muhlegg, retired in 2009, and was finally banned in 2011 for six years (2003-9). Turned out he used a lab in Vienna (Humanplasma) for years, since 2003, and had his own centrifuge for concentrating his own transfusions. Of course he still has that gold medal, lolz.

On the other hand, browse through the insane Paul Edwards thread to learn more about the British system.

As for Coe, remember that blood transfusions were legal in 1981, and no OOC tests existed (regarding steroids), when he ran his insane 1:41, which was only bettered by two runners in 37 years ("coincidentally" one during the EPO era, one during the Diack era). Combine that with Coe's questionable character, to put it mildly, extreme ambition, and interest in the East German methods.

Last but not least, athletes have historically used both homologous (more efficient and productive) and autologous (safer for health, undetectable) blood transfusions, with the former being a likely cause for Coe's illness.

casual obsever wrote:

As for blood doping, have you seen the Austrian who simply stopped on the autobahn to give himself transfusions? You don't need to do that in your home in front of your roommates.

Or this one: "discovery of discarded blood transfusion equipment at the house used by Austrian cross-country skiers during the Salt Lake City Games" - no prior rumors, no consequences thereafter...

Fun story, actually. One of the two involved medal winners, Hoffmann (silver over 30 km), was cleared back in 2002, then got his silver medal upgraded to gold in 2004 because of DQ'ed drug cheat Muhlegg, retired in 2009, and was finally banned in 2011 for six years (2003-9). Turned out he used a lab in Vienna (Humanplasma) for years, since 2003, and had his own centrifuge for concentrating his own transfusions. Of course he still has that gold medal, lolz.

Hoffman?...too funny. You remember Danish cyclist Michael Rasmussen? He and two other athletes, Austrian cyclist Bernhard Kohl and Austrian cross-country skier Christian Hoffman all chipped in for a blood centrifuge and did their own blood doping in a rented apartment! Now that's taking matters into your own hands and sharing the expense.?

Coevett wrote:

Aouita's seasons bests

age 20 : 3:37

age 21 : 3:37

age 22 : 3:38

Discovers 'secret training methods' in the winter of 82/83 in Italy.

age 23: 3:30

age 24: 3:30 (running the 5000m in LA)

age 25 3:29 (never ran faster)

Wrong for the umpteenth time.

Correct is:

age 19 or 20: 3:37.08

age 20 or 21: 3:37.69

age 21 or 22: 3:37.37

age 22 or 23: 3:32.54

age 23 or 24: 3:31.54

age 24 or 25: 3:29.46

he will never learn wrote:

Wrong for the umpteenth time.

Correct is:

age 19 or 20: 3:37.08

age 20 or 21: 3:37.69

age 21 or 22: 3:37.37

age 22 or 23: 3:32.54

age 23 or 24: 3:31.54

age 24 or 25: 3:29.46

Whichever way you look at it, that is one seriously dodgy progression (only made even more dodgier by the uncertainty over his age).

Aouita apologists never go away wrote:

he will never learn wrote:

Wrong for the umpteenth time.

Correct is:

age 19 or 20: 3:37.08

age 20 or 21: 3:37.69

age 21 or 22: 3:37.37

age 22 or 23: 3:32.54

age 23 or 24: 3:31.54

age 24 or 25: 3:29.46

Whichever way you look at it, that is one seriously dodgy progression (only made even more dodgier by the uncertainty over his age).

Filip's is even dodgier then.

Filip's progression. wrote:

Aouita apologists never go away wrote:

Whichever way you look at it, that is one seriously dodgy progression (only made even more dodgier by the uncertainty over his age).

Filip's is even dodgier then.

No, because Filip had some injuries in the couple of years his progress stalled. Furthermore, Aouita's weird progression is across the board from 800 to 5000. It also didn't coincide with a full time move to Italy and the enlisting of Italian (and Belgian) doctors.

But they did talk in the end, and Coe is a massively much bigger target than 'Team Telekom' etc. How much would Putin pay for someone to come out and say they doped Sebastian Coe?You're saying he was blood doping with other blood (presumably not on the Olso metro) and that's how he got his infection.

Coe campaigned for blood doping to be illegal. The fact that British runners got slower when EPO was legal and undetectable, and running in general outside of Africa stagnated, suggests that the possibility of cheating scott free doesn't entail that an athlete will do it.

I'm still puzzled as to why Coe had such relatively poor endurance (according to most posters here) if he was the guy who was blood doping.

Coe is performing the impossible and going a long way to cleaning up athletics (to the extent that it is possible to do so). Yet his 'questionable character' is proof he was a doper.

Well, the first scandal broke via admissions of some cyclists, and the second because dirty syringes were delivered by Graham, after Balco ran for 14 years or so.

Putin? He would likely keep the information quiet, and use that to blackmail Coe.

No, I am not saying Coe got his infection that way; that infection is just one more reason to "suspect" him. Again, it was legal, so...

The first fact, if actually true (see Radcliffe and Farah for example), can be rewritten (EPO legal?):

The fact that British runners got slower when serious testing for steroids began, suggests that...

Your second point is another lie that you keep repeating. In fact, the only non-African mid- and long distance records that didn't get broken are Coe's 1:41 and Jarmila's 1:53, maybe coincidentally, or maybe because roids are more important for the 800 than for the longer distances.

I didn't say it was proof.

He attacked Seppelt for uncovering the truth ("declaration of war"), he tried to ruin Ashenden's and Parisotto's reputation ("these so-called scientists", "breathtaking ignorance or a level of malevolence"), had various shady CSM dealings, mixed his different jobs (Nike and IAAF VP) and then lied about it (plus decade-long cheating on the wife).

Here from the BBC 2015:

"When asked about the allegations, Coe told the BBC he "did not lobby anyone" over Eugene's bid, but "encouraged them to re-enter another bidding cycle as they had a strong bid".

...

A BBC investigation has uncovered emails which claim Coe - an ambassador for sports giant Nike and then vice-president of world athletics - "reached out" to Lamine Diack with his support for Eugene's bid.

...

Diack announced a surprise vote on whether to bypass a normal bidding process, and simply hand the 2021 games to Eugene."

Nothing to see here, just some friends supporting each other. Lol.

And here,

Oh, and let's not forget that he fights against transparency and against criminalization of doping.

Doesn't look like he is "going a long way to cleaning up athletics".