LateRunnerPhil - Tinman Training Through Summer to 5k PR in Sep (Goal ~15:30)

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5 years ago 05/08/2020 10:10pm EDT

re: The Floyd

[quote]The Floyd wrote:

Phil, I think you should sit down, take a deep breath, and re-read your last post with an open mind. No offense, but it's a deeply ironic post by you given the whole point of this thread was how you realized that you were over-training previously and disregarding the well-intended advice you were getting. I don't really care how you train, but as someone who has worked on and off with Tom for 6-7 years, if you really want to implement his training approach then you really need to re-think what you're doing.

First of all, the idea of adding more volume than even the elite guys are doing is insane. To do it because "you need to work even harder than they do given your lesser talent" truly is insane. To do it to force yourself to slow down is also insane. Just slow down! You can do it, really! It won't kill you! Run no more than 6 x 1km, and do it at the proper pace. Better yet, start with 4-5 and work up to 6. Btw, your threshold 1600s are way too many. I've never had to do more than 4 x 1600 when I had hills and other stuff after it.

Second, Tom is a huge believer in running paces based off current (that day's) fitness. All the paces in your schedule look to be roughly based on your all-time 5km PR. NO! Remember, it's not supposed to be paces based on a recent PR, but even slower still because you need to take into account that on workout day you're a little fatigued and there's no race-day adrenaline or competition. Literally every single one of your paces is too fast.

Last, the time trials: never heard of Tom assigning a 7km time trial. But he's nothing if not flexible, so go for it if you want. But I imagine he'd treat it as a race and build in more recovery. So don't run hard for another 4-5 days. And don't be silly and put in more work after any TT.

Again, you can obviously do whatever you want, but what you're doing is not "Tinman training". Listen or not. Not trying to be harsh here, but I'm just baffled by your last post...

[quote]LateRunnerPhil wrote:

Phil, this is the best post of the whole thread. If you aren’t trying to self-sabotage (which I do all the time), please heed this advice. You claim to love Tinman, but you do everything possible (by justifying ridiculous things) to make sure you don’t do Tinman training and instead destroy your body. You haven’t learned and are doing the same thing as last year!

5 years ago 05/09/2020 4:43am EDT

re: siehst

siehst wrote:
The Floyd wrote:
Phil, I think you should sit down, take a deep breath, and re-read your last post with an open mind. No offense, but it's a deeply ironic post by you given the whole point of this thread was how you realized that you were over-training previously and disregarding the well-intended advice you were getting. I don't really care how you train, but as someone who has worked on and off with Tom for 6-7 years, if you really want to implement his training approach then you really need to re-think what you're doing.
First of all, the idea of adding more volume than even the elite guys are doing is insane. To do it because "you need to work even harder than they do given your lesser talent" truly is insane. To do it to force yourself to slow down is also insane. Just slow down! You can do it, really! It won't kill you! Run no more than 6 x 1km, and do it at the proper pace. Better yet, start with 4-5 and work up to 6. Btw, your threshold 1600s are way too many. I've never had to do more than 4 x 1600 when I had hills and other stuff after it.
Second, Tom is a huge believer in running paces based off current (that day's) fitness. All the paces in your schedule look to be roughly based on your all-time 5km PR. NO! Remember, it's not supposed to be paces based on a recent PR, but even slower still because you need to take into account that on workout day you're a little fatigued and there's no race-day adrenaline or competition. Literally every single one of your paces is too fast.
Last, the time trials: never heard of Tom assigning a 7km time trial. But he's nothing if not flexible, so go for it if you want. But I imagine he'd treat it as a race and build in more recovery. So don't run hard for another 4-5 days. And don't be silly and put in more work after any TT.
Again, you can obviously do whatever you want, but what you're doing is not "Tinman training". Listen or not. Not trying to be harsh here, but I'm just baffled by your last post...
Phil, this is the best post of the whole thread. If you aren’t trying to self-sabotage (which I do all the time), please heed this advice. You claim to love Tinman, but you do everything possible (by justifying ridiculous things) to make sure you don’t do Tinman training and instead destroy your body. You haven’t learned and are doing the same thing as last year!

Yea I re-read his post and it makes a lot of sense. People just want to help me. Like many "young" runners I want to crush all my workouts and believe I always have to run hard and fast to get something out of it. It's a flawed concept. Often, my best improvements happened when I trained the easiest. I couldn't explain why I was suddenly quick each time I eased back the training. Doing Tinman workouts but with wrong paces is not Tinman training at all.

The reason why I increased my mileage so much, to average 90 mpw at one point was because I was disappointed that my 10k ability was so weak. 16:15 5k and struggling with 35:00 10k, which runner does that? The same people I closed in on the last 400m in a 5k and outkicked would smoke me in anything longer. No matter how hard I would try in an 8k or 10k, I would be left behind. So I thought, what I need to do is run a lot of miles to get stronger aerobically.

But with all the posts in these threads, maybe there was a different reason of my large drop off and the inability to hold medium-fast paces in longer races. Maybe I wasn't outkicking people so hard because I'm just so fast-twitch (and am more 50/50 like most runners), but because my training was always very intense. I was used to produce lots of lactate with the 5k paced 1k's and run hard at the end of workouts with the endless 30s 200s and hill sprints I did.

I was dieing in my peak 5k race, where I was well rested and in shape, at pace of just 3:20/k that others (even females) held without much trouble. My breathing was totally out of control, and I had to put in a massive kick just to save the time and get a good placing. I blamed it on just having low talent, since I started out so slow, or on "being too fast-twitch", but that maybe I did not train optimally never came to my mind.

Will be doing a CV workout today, it's hot (high 70s) so I'm going to start with 3:30 instead of 3:25, and only cut down if it's easy. No need to run fast paces at this point in time when the races don't start until September.

5 years ago 05/09/2020 5:13am EDT

re: Dr Slow Twitch

Dr Slow Twitch wrote:
The Floyd wrote:
Phil, I think you should sit down, take a deep breath, and re-read your last post with an open mind. No offense, but it's a deeply ironic post by you given the whole point of this thread was how you realized that you were over-training previously and disregarding the well-intended advice you were getting. I don't really care how you train, but as someone who has worked on and off with Tom for 6-7 years, if you really want to implement his training approach then you really need to re-think what you're doing.
First of all, the idea of adding more volume than even the elite guys are doing is insane. To do it because "you need to work even harder than they do given your lesser talent" truly is insane. To do it to force yourself to slow down is also insane. Just slow down! You can do it, really! It won't kill you! Run no more than 6 x 1km, and do it at the proper pace. Better yet, start with 4-5 and work up to 6. Btw, your threshold 1600s are way too many. I've never had to do more than 4 x 1600 when I had hills and other stuff after it.
Second, Tom is a huge believer in running paces based off current (that day's) fitness. All the paces in your schedule look to be roughly based on your all-time 5km PR. NO! Remember, it's not supposed to be paces based on a recent PR, but even slower still because you need to take into account that on workout day you're a little fatigued and there's no race-day adrenaline or competition. Literally every single one of your paces is too fast.
Last, the time trials: never heard of Tom assigning a 7km time trial. But he's nothing if not flexible, so go for it if you want. But I imagine he'd treat it as a race and build in more recovery. So don't run hard for another 4-5 days. And don't be silly and put in more work after any TT.
Again, you can obviously do whatever you want, but what you're doing is not "Tinman training". Listen or not. Not trying to be harsh here, but I'm just baffled by your last post...
Listen to Tom , Phil! What you are doing isn't Tinman training, but you need something else,
a magical program that takes you to your dreams!

Well hello again JS

5 years ago 05/09/2020 5:16am EDT

re: siehst

siehst wrote:
[quote]The Floyd wrote:
Phil, I think you should sit down, take a deep breath, and re-read your last post with an open mind. No offense, but it's a deeply ironic post by you given the whole point of this thread was how you realized that you were over-training previously and disregarding the well-intended advice you were getting. I don't really care how you train, but as someone who has worked on and off with Tom for 6-7 years, if you really want to implement his training approach then you really need to re-think what you're doing.
First of all, the idea of adding more volume than even the elite guys are doing is insane. To do it because "you need to work even harder than they do given your lesser talent" truly is insane. To do it to force yourself to slow down is also insane. Just slow down! You can do it, really! It won't kill you! Run no more than 6 x 1km, and do it at the proper pace. Better yet, start with 4-5 and work up to 6. Btw, your threshold 1600s are way too many. I've never had to do more than 4 x 1600 when I had hills and other stuff after it.
Second, Tom is a huge believer in running paces based off current (that day's) fitness. All the paces in your schedule look to be roughly based on your all-time 5km PR. NO! Remember, it's not supposed to be paces based on a recent PR, but even slower still because you need to take into account that on workout day you're a little fatigued and there's no race-day adrenaline or competition. Literally every single one of your paces is too fast.
Last, the time trials: never heard of Tom assigning a 7km time trial. But he's nothing if not flexible, so go for it if you want. But I imagine he'd treat it as a race and build in more recovery. So don't run hard for another 4-5 days. And don't be silly and put in more work after any TT.
Again, you can obviously do whatever you want, but what you're doing is not "Tinman training". Listen or not. Not trying to be harsh here, but I'm just baffled by your last post...
[quote]LateRunnerPhil wrote:
Phil, this is the best post of the whole thread. If you aren’t trying to self-sabotage (which I do all the time), please heed this advice. You claim to love Tinman, but you do everything possible (by justifying ridiculous things) to make sure you don’t do Tinman training and instead destroy your body. You haven’t learned and are doing the same thing as last year!

This is why he's #1 on the all time most annoying list. Don't you know, he deep down believes he knows better than Tom. He really does.

He want say so, but just read his postings. The way he doles out condescending advice to all comers on these boards.

Hell, he even tweaks Tom's coaching workouts, bc he knows better.

True narcissism

Good man, Phil. Coaching yourself is very hard because changes happen over the course of months and we struggle emotionally with seeing any further than a few days ahead/behind. This corona period is the best chance you have to train easier and see if it works since there’s no races. I recently started training a lot easier — 40 less km/week and much less training above my lactate threshold — and there’s a huge boost that you can get when you notice you’re consistently feeling good and strong and yet still getting better.

5 years ago 05/09/2020 6:55am EDT

re: The Floyd

The Floyd wrote:
First of all, the idea of adding more volume than even the elite guys are doing is insane. To do it because "you need to work even harder than they do given your lesser talent" truly is insane. To do it to force yourself to slow down is also insane. Just slow down! You can do it, really! It won't kill you! Run no more than 6 x 1km, and do it at the proper pace. Better yet, start with 4-5 and work up to 6. Btw, your threshold 1600s are way too many. I've never had to do more than 4 x 1600 when I had hills and other stuff after it.
Second, Tom is a huge believer in running paces based off current (that day's) fitness. All the paces in your schedule look to be roughly based on your all-time 5km PR. NO! Remember, it's not supposed to be paces based on a recent PR, but even slower still because you need to take into account that on workout day you're a little fatigued and there's no race-day adrenaline or competition. Literally every single one of your paces is too fast.

5 years ago 05/09/2020 8:07am EDT

re: Another giver of +1.

STAGNATION

Since I started training 2.5 years ago, I've been on a somewhat steady roll. With base line of 20:00, It just took me 4-5 months with minimal mileage and 2-3 runs/week to run 18:25. Another 4 months later I ran 17:37. I thought I'm unbeatable. I was extremely fatigued all the time and often had to run 10 min miles on recovery days, but since I was new I still improved. First setback was after a 10 day season break - I lost a lot of fitness, way more than others I ran with. Went to many different places to train (Florida, Chicago, Austria, Portugal, etc.) and after two stress fractures from the training camp in Portugal 2019, started improving again. Each week, I did a CV session, which actually was a VO2MAX/I-pace session with low rest. I dropped the pace of the reps all the way down to 3:17/k. What happened was a mediocre peak race, in 16:15, and some other decent ones in ~16:30 after. Then, my last race was just a 17:00. Trained even harder, and my body gave out. It wasn't a strain while sprinting, it was cumulative fatigue over months. I felt pain during the workout but still pushed through with terrible form. On the cooldown jog I was crawling at 11 min/mile in pain. The following MRI showed a sacral stress fracture (lower back), a condition that often affects tall runners and triathletes (which I'm both). For the first time I realized, I'm playing with fire. I can't walk now, will I ever be able to run again? What if I overdo it again and ruin my body? Luckily, I was able to train again after 6 weeks completely off and get into it well. But the next disappointment happened in the training run - the same 6-mile tempo, had the same pace as last year. I didn't improve at all in 12 months. Even though I just ran for 1.5 years when I ran the 6 mile tempo in 6 min pace!

WHAT HAPPENED?

Well, I did exactly what Tom (Tinman for those who don't know) always preaches - I trained myself in shape by doing hard intervals at 5k pace/VO2MAX week after week. I increased my ability to produce lactate and lactate tolerance, or in other words - my anaerobic system. I could kick well, and had an excuse for my performances - "I'm fast-twitch". Any pace between 4:50-6:00 felt hard. My body never learned how to use lactate and run a strong pace for a medium-long time. What I learned was how to run 5-6x1k reps with 200m rest as fast as possible, and how to deal with the fatigue and pain from very hard running. I improved from 17:00 to 16:15 in half a year of intense training. But now, I'm back to 17:00. It wasn't consistent improvement. If I was a high-schooler, I would be a junior/senior now that's stagnating, and ends up quitting the sport cos he is losing to people he used to beat earlier. Others just trained smarter, and with more long-term orientation.

THE FIRST REAL CV WORKOUT

Today I planned 7x1k@3:20, 7x30s hills, 7x100m strides. I used to always ignore people on LRC telling me to slow down. "They are just trolls and want me to train too easy so I don't improve". But I thought about it again - what if they are right? In the end, I'm the one that didn't improve in the last 12 months. My recent 10k TT was only 3:38/k, with goal of 3:30/k (making excuse for 65F and sunny and a 1-2% gradient on an out-and-back course). I was never able to race what my "CV" pace had predicted. It was a warm day today. I decided for a pace of 3:30/k, 10s/k slower than planned. I felt good doing it, trying to keep up a high cadence. Struggling in the heat (78F), but not straining or dying. I took a 5 min break in the middle of the 6x1k reps and hydrated and cooled down. 6xhills and 6xstrides? No, that would be too much again. I'll leave room for later. Did 4x200 from 34 down to 30 flat and felt great.

On the bike ride home I felt invigorated, not beat up like usual. Did I work hard enough today? Is it a workout? I'm not tired, and not grumpy as I usually was after doing them at 5k pace. The VO2MAX 5k pace in long reps week after week did not just make me tired, but also screwed with my endocrine system. My legs would often be dead. Not today. Today I worked within my ability - feel great, reduced risk of another major injury, and don't feel like I need to eat 234243 calories just to survive.

THANKS people for bringing me on the right way! Let's see if I can keep this up.

5 years ago 05/09/2020 8:38am EDT

re: LateRunnerPhil

At 44y/o and 185 pds I went from 21:00 to 18:13 in 6 months like I mentioned. EZ runs were no more than 1 hr and LR with tempo miles 90mins.....in fact CV miles and tempo with warm up cool and LR tended to be the same mileage/time -12-13 miles. Around 50 a week.

5 years ago 05/09/2020 8:40am EDT

re: Runtodafridge

And - every time trial proved I could run 20-30 secs below CV for 5k.

5 years ago 05/09/2020 9:19am EDT

re: LateRunnerPhil

I`m sorry for your sake that you can`t understand you are doing the wrong analyzes why you don`t improve anymore. It`s not about you have run your sessions too fast and now must back off to much slower paces. It`s about you must run your individual EXACT best paces in training to improve.

Could you please comment this my comment and tell me why you don`t want me to coach you for free with my DANCAN system that so far has improved all runners going into it.....you will of course not be an exception .You will get a guaranteed improvement. Is it out of stubbornness or some kind of pride you don`t accept my offer? Don` you think it could be thrilling to see how much better you can be with me as your private coach ? Don`t you realize you waste your time by this your "trial and error" self- coaching?

5 years ago 05/09/2020 9:37am EDT

re: SUPERIOR COACH JS

Jan,

The worst kind of coach is the kind that asks runners to work with them. An athlete should ask you to work with them, not the other way around. You obviously do not understand this, but maybe my saying this will enlighten you as to why you are seen as annoying by everybody on this board. Learn some humility and lose your ego before you post here again please.

5 years ago 05/09/2020 9:42am EDT

re: the lactate man

Phil,

The general cycle as you ease up on the paces and run more according to your current level is that you’ll feel better and better and eventually fall back into your old habits because you feel so fresh. Keep reminding yourself to not to overdo it and repeat the mistakes of the past. Your natural tendency is to go too hard so you should never wonder if you should have trained harder. This is not a bad thing.

5 years ago 05/09/2020 9:45am EDT

re: the lactate man

the lactate man wrote:
Jan,
The worst kind of coach is the kind that asks runners to work with them. An athlete should ask you to work with them, not the other way around. You obviously do not understand this, but maybe my saying this will enlighten you as to why you are seen as annoying by everybody on this board. Learn some humility and lose your ego before you post here again please.

Or as Tywin Lannister once said -

"any coach that has to ask runners to be coached by him, is no true coach"

A little bit of humility goes a long way (same goes for me, btw).

5 years ago 05/09/2020 10:03am EDT

re: the lactate man

the lactate man wrote:
Jan,
The worst kind of coach is the kind that asks runners to work with them. An athlete should ask you to work with them, not the other way around. You obviously do not understand this, but maybe my saying this will enlighten you as to why you are seen as annoying by everybody on this board. Learn some humility and lose your ego before you post here again please.

Well......that statement may stand for you. I have both asked runners if they want my coaching

and runners have asked me to coach them. The last option is the most common.That`s the way I work and so far all improved.And you are of course wrong "everybody" finds me annoying on this board. `Unpopular take- COACH J.S is competent. `

5 years ago 05/09/2020 10:20am EDT

re: LateRunnerPhil

LateRunnerPhil wrote:
the lactate man wrote:
Jan,
The worst kind of coach is the kind that asks runners to work with them. An athlete should ask you to work with them, not the other way around. You obviously do not understand this, but maybe my saying this will enlighten you as to why you are seen as annoying by everybody on this board. Learn some humility and lose your ego before you post here again please.
Or as Tywin Lannister once said -
"any coach that has to ask runners to be coached by him, is no true coach"
A little bit of humility goes a long way (same goes for me, btw).

You just mix up humility with long exoerience how to train most effective. I gave you my offer and you let it down. The offer will of course not come back. Trial and error......wasting time.

5 years ago 05/09/2020 12:33pm EDT

re: LateRunnerPhil

Glad you had a good workout, Phil!

5 years ago 05/09/2020 8:19pm EDT

re: LateRunnerPhil

LateRunnerPhil wrote:
STAGNATION
Since I started training 2.5 years ago, I've been on a somewhat steady roll. With base line of 20:00, It just took me 4-5 months with minimal mileage and 2-3 runs/week to run 18:25. Another 4 months later I ran 17:37. I thought I'm unbeatable. I was extremely fatigued all the time and often had to run 10 min miles on recovery days, but since I was new I still improved. First setback was after a 10 day season break - I lost a lot of fitness, way more than others I ran with. Went to many different places to train (Florida, Chicago, Austria, Portugal, etc.) and after two stress fractures from the training camp in Portugal 2019, started improving again. Each week, I did a CV session, which actually was a VO2MAX/I-pace session with low rest. I dropped the pace of the reps all the way down to 3:17/k. What happened was a mediocre peak race, in 16:15, and some other decent ones in ~16:30 after. Then, my last race was just a 17:00. Trained even harder, and my body gave out. It wasn't a strain while sprinting, it was cumulative fatigue over months. I felt pain during the workout but still pushed through with terrible form. On the cooldown jog I was crawling at 11 min/mile in pain. The following MRI showed a sacral stress fracture (lower back), a condition that often affects tall runners and triathletes (which I'm both). For the first time I realized, I'm playing with fire. I can't walk now, will I ever be able to run again? What if I overdo it again and ruin my body? Luckily, I was able to train again after 6 weeks completely off and get into it well. But the next disappointment happened in the training run - the same 6-mile tempo, had the same pace as last year. I didn't improve at all in 12 months. Even though I just ran for 1.5 years when I ran the 6 mile tempo in 6 min pace!
WHAT HAPPENED?
Well, I did exactly what Tom (Tinman for those who don't know) always preaches - I trained myself in shape by doing hard intervals at 5k pace/VO2MAX week after week. I increased my ability to produce lactate and lactate tolerance, or in other words - my anaerobic system. I could kick well, and had an excuse for my performances - "I'm fast-twitch". Any pace between 4:50-6:00 felt hard. My body never learned how to use lactate and run a strong pace for a medium-long time. What I learned was how to run 5-6x1k reps with 200m rest as fast as possible, and how to deal with the fatigue and pain from very hard running. I improved from 17:00 to 16:15 in half a year of intense training. But now, I'm back to 17:00. It wasn't consistent improvement. If I was a high-schooler, I would be a junior/senior now that's stagnating, and ends up quitting the sport cos he is losing to people he used to beat earlier. Others just trained smarter, and with more long-term orientation.
THE FIRST REAL CV WORKOUT
Today I planned 7x1k@3:20, 7x30s hills, 7x100m strides. I used to always ignore people on LRC telling me to slow down. "They are just trolls and want me to train too easy so I don't improve". But I thought about it again - what if they are right? In the end, I'm the one that didn't improve in the last 12 months. My recent 10k TT was only 3:38/k, with goal of 3:30/k (making excuse for 65F and sunny and a 1-2% gradient on an out-and-back course). I was never able to race what my "CV" pace had predicted. It was a warm day today. I decided for a pace of 3:30/k, 10s/k slower than planned. I felt good doing it, trying to keep up a high cadence. Struggling in the heat (78F), but not straining or dying. I took a 5 min break in the middle of the 6x1k reps and hydrated and cooled down. 6xhills and 6xstrides? No, that would be too much again. I'll leave room for later. Did 4x200 from 34 down to 30 flat and felt great.
On the bike ride home I felt invigorated, not beat up like usual. Did I work hard enough today? Is it a workout? I'm not tired, and not grumpy as I usually was after doing them at 5k pace. The VO2MAX 5k pace in long reps week after week did not just make me tired, but also screwed with my endocrine system. My legs would often be dead. Not today. Today I worked within my ability - feel great, reduced risk of another major injury, and don't feel like I need to eat 234243 calories just to survive.
THANKS people for bringing me on the right way! Let's see if I can keep this up.

If you do these CV workouts at the right effort, you should decide tomorrow that today's workout was hard enough.

5 years ago 05/10/2020 4:38am EDT

re: the lactate man

the lactate man wrote:
Jan,
The worst kind of coach is the kind that asks runners to work with them. An athlete should ask you to work with them, not the other way around. You obviously do not understand this, but maybe my saying this will enlighten you as to why you are seen as annoying by everybody on this board. Learn some humility and lose your ego before you post here again please.

YOU are completely wrong! The worst kind of coach is the kind that without reflective humility can`t see that there are many roads leading to Rome. I have never told that my DANCAN system is the only way to success,how could I? But I have shown it`s a very smart and effective way which saves both time and failure.

5 years ago 05/10/2020 5:53am EDT

re: LateRunnerPhil

This thread keeps on giving.

Phil giving a WAY TOO LONG self aggrandizing diatribe because he didn't push to hard, and

JS begging, fucking begging for this ego-maniac to allow him to be coached by the great JS.

Hey JS, you've met your match, he has a bigger ego than you do. Either that or he knows you are full of poop.

the all time annoying exacta rolls in wrote:
This thread keeps on giving.
Phil giving a WAY TOO LONG self aggrandizing diatribe because he didn't push to hard, and
JS begging, fucking begging for this ego-maniac to allow him to be coached by the great JS.
Hey JS, you've met your match, he has a bigger ego than you do. Either that or he knows you are full of poop.

It's not okey nonsense that you raise out of you! I proposed LRP an offer to test my method and LRP declined. So what?

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LateRunnerPhil - Tinman Training Through Summer to 5k PR in Sep (Goal ~15:30)

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