El g is known to have done that workout in around 54 seconds per 400m, right around 1500m pace
El g is known to have done that workout in around 54 seconds per 400m, right around 1500m pace
Kevin Hadsell wrote:
SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:
Yes, you found a study that shows 3k pace and 5 k pace have hardly worth mentioning difference when it comes to maxVO2 intervals efficiency when it comes to improving 5 k time . But if you think what happens if you gradually can improve your 5 k race pace to be the same as your former 3 k pace I think you realize the big lift.Both Daniels and Bideau advocates 5 k pace for maxVO2 intervals. This with anaerobic strength through 5 k race pace is the basic key when it comes to all distances from 800m and up to marathon . 3 k pace is only need for when preparing for a 3 k race. So most of the time you can just ignore 3 k pace and instead go for 800m -1500m race pace and faster as a complement to race your optimum 800/ 1500/ mile race.And added to all this you have the very important LT -pace not to forget.I finish this comment by saying if a runner can run 20 x 400m at 60-61 sec with about 60 sec rest and controlled with almost no pushing , that runner can theoretically and in practice run world record times at 800m up to marathon if coached correctly.
One important caveat to my previous post, as it relates to my own training system, is that I only use 3k pace because it is the closest to a race distance we can relate to. In reality, we did these types of workouts at 2k pace. As I mentioned, this is just one workout (or progression of workouts) so it is only a snapshot of a series of workouts and lifestyle that makes a movie.
So, in order for me to know “exactly” what their actual VO2max pace is, we periodically run a race-like, all-out effort over an 1800m loop. We called that “Swan Loop” and the all-our Swan was done to test ourselves in an environment where there is no fear of failure.there is way more to it than this, but this is the Reader’s Digest version.
Everyone that ran for me knew their Swan time. The goal is to continue to improve your Swan Loop PR over the course of a season and the course of a year and the course of their career. It’s based off the layman’s VO2max test of 6:00 all-out.
Like I said, way more to it than all this. However, just wanted to be clear that when we were training, regardless of the workout and the goals of the workout, I can always give a fairly accurate time range because I basically always knew exactly what everyone’s VO2max pace was.
Giving 3k as the pace was done more out of convenience because it was easy to understand. However, in reality, we were trying to train at 2k pace.
Many ways to skin a cat. My program worked for me and for Toledo (and Coastal). These workouts are a small snapshot but are what I consider to be essential over the course of the segments and seasons (and careers).
From the back of the room.
~Kevin
Yes indeed, many ways to skin a cat, But even in that skill there is a need of a skilled "surgeon`s intervention" for best results.
From the top in the control room.
SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:
Kevin Hadsell wrote:
One important caveat to my previous post, as it relates to my own training system, is that I only use 3k pace because it is the closest to a race distance we can relate to. In reality, we did these types of workouts at 2k pace. As I mentioned, this is just one workout (or progression of workouts) so it is only a snapshot of a series of workouts and lifestyle that makes a movie.
So, in order for me to know “exactly” what their actual VO2max pace is, we periodically run a race-like, all-out effort over an 1800m loop. We called that “Swan Loop” and the all-our Swan was done to test ourselves in an environment where there is no fear of failure.there is way more to it than this, but this is the Reader’s Digest version.
Everyone that ran for me knew their Swan time. The goal is to continue to improve your Swan Loop PR over the course of a season and the course of a year and the course of their career. It’s based off the layman’s VO2max test of 6:00 all-out.
Like I said, way more to it than all this. However, just wanted to be clear that when we were training, regardless of the workout and the goals of the workout, I can always give a fairly accurate time range because I basically always knew exactly what everyone’s VO2max pace was.
Giving 3k as the pace was done more out of convenience because it was easy to understand. However, in reality, we were trying to train at 2k pace.
Many ways to skin a cat. My program worked for me and for Toledo (and Coastal). These workouts are a small snapshot but are what I consider to be essential over the course of the segments and seasons (and careers).
From the back of the room.
~Kevin
Yes indeed, many ways to skin a cat, But even in that skill there is a need of a skilled "surgeon`s intervention" for best results.
From the top in the control room.
I agree that it does take a cumulative and highly thought-out and tested training program to get the best out of each athlete. These workouts are meaningless unless there is an overall approach to the training. Each workout is a piece of the puzzle. Not brain surgery. However, not piecemeal either.
While I was coaching, I kept an open mind and loved to talk training with other coaches that I respected and that had shown great, overwhelming success with all their athletes (not just 10% or so). I certainly believed in the program that I created but there were a lot of speed bumps along the way and took me a solid 15 years of coaching before I felt as though the program was great for all types of athletes and all levels of ability. This all being done while still being open to adapting the approach while still keeping an overall wholistic and cumulative approach to the training.
No one workout is any more or less important than an easy recovery day. The goal is to get better over time and to train consistently. However, each workout (including an easy recovery day or a rest day), should have meaning.
Just some thoughts. If there is anything about coaching that I miss, it is yammering about training with other coaches.
Kevin Hadsell wrote:
SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:
Yes indeed, many ways to skin a cat, But even in that skill there is a need of a skilled "surgeon`s intervention" for best results.
From the top in the control room.
I agree that it does take a cumulative and highly thought-out and tested training program to get the best out of each athlete. These workouts are meaningless unless there is an overall approach to the training. Each workout is a piece of the puzzle. Not brain surgery. However, not piecemeal either.
While I was coaching, I kept an open mind and loved to talk training with other coaches that I respected and that had shown great, overwhelming success with all their athletes (not just 10% or so). I certainly believed in the program that I created but there were a lot of speed bumps along the way and took me a solid 15 years of coaching before I felt as though the program was great for all types of athletes and all levels of ability. This all being done while still being open to adapting the approach while still keeping an overall wholistic and cumulative approach to the training.
No one workout is any more or less important than an easy recovery day. The goal is to get better over time and to train consistently. However, each workout (including an easy recovery day or a rest day), should have meaning.
Just some thoughts. If there is anything about coaching that I miss, it is yammering about training with other coaches.
That`s great Kevin! Yammering with other coaches is just so interesting and my gatherings are when I argue mr CANOVA here and his definite opinion you can`t coach world class Africans online. I just smirk at his assumptions and shows that things are going great. ))) Where are you tonight Renato? Please jump in and join us with your long great experience. I suppose you have time to be here now when you have to hide in your home from covid-19. )))
Kevin Hadsell wrote:
SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:
Yes indeed, many ways to skin a cat, But even in that skill there is a need of a skilled "surgeon`s intervention" for best results.
From the top in the control room.
I agree that it does take a cumulative and highly thought-out and tested training program to get the best out of each athlete. These workouts are meaningless unless there is an overall approach to the training. Each workout is a piece of the puzzle. Not brain surgery. However, not piecemeal either.
While I was coaching, I kept an open mind and loved to talk training with other coaches that I respected and that had shown great, overwhelming success with all their athletes (not just 10% or so). I certainly believed in the program that I created but there were a lot of speed bumps along the way and took me a solid 15 years of coaching before I felt as though the program was great for all types of athletes and all levels of ability. This all being done while still being open to adapting the approach while still keeping an overall wholistic and cumulative approach to the training.
No one workout is any more or less important than an easy recovery day. The goal is to get better over time and to train consistently. However, each workout (including an easy recovery day or a rest day), should have meaning.
Just some thoughts. If there is anything about coaching that I miss, it is yammering about training with other coaches.
I know for sure I have improved 100% of the runners coached by me and that must be a coaching record I guess? That`s not to brag, just the truth and how it really is.
I came to think about a clear way to have Renato visit us again and it`s just like doing this .......Canova , Canova , Canova and Canova !!.....please come in . He always use to respond on this and come in and talk about his fantastic work and achievements. Cheers! Soon he will be here.....never fail,haha! )))
LateRunnerPhil wrote:
Drew Hunter, a 7:40 guy, has done the workout twice recently.
On HIGH altitude (Boulder)
12x400 with 100 jog rest, in 64s (35-40s rest)
8 minute jog
3 mile threshold (4:59-4:52-4:48)
64s at altitude is probably around 62s on flat, which would be his exact 3k pace. Followed by 3 mile threshold at Daniel's threshold, so no jogging.
On FLAT place (hometown)
800 in 2:25, 400 jog
10x400 in 65-63-63-63-63-62-62-61-60-59 with 100 JOG rest (35-45s rest)
400 jog after last One
5x200-29-28-28-28-27 with 200 jog rest
5 minute jog
2 mile tempo- (5:15-5:07)
Again they were ~3k pace, progressing down to mile pace all on very short rest (a bit more than 30s, but it's active jogging/shuffling). The 200s were around 800m effort, and the tempo very relaxed at Tinman Tempo/MP.
Judging from his workouts he is already in great shape again. The VO2MAX work seems to be more important in Tinman Elite now after they collectively underperformed at Boston 5k. I will try one of these workouts myself next week I think.
Philip, can you share a link or original source that shows these workouts? From what I know of Tinman, it makes little sense as anything other than a substitute for a race. I just can't believe it's the staple that you think it is.
On the other hand, it's more reasonable if Hunter is taking 60+ seconds to run the 100m recoveries.
And I think 64 seconds at altitude may convert to 64 seconds at sea level. Especially when you are running 400s at your 5K pace (13:20, even without rounding error).
Also worth noting that the 10x400 included 5 at around 5K pace and 5 averaging 3K pace. With the first 800 at marathon pace.
All of which is to say, any of us using this as inspiration for routinely running 10-12 x 400 at 3K pace with 40 seconds rest would just be looking for an excuse to run workouts harder than we should.
webby wrote:
LateRunnerPhil wrote:
Drew Hunter, a 7:40 guy, has done the workout twice recently.
On HIGH altitude (Boulder)
12x400 with 100 jog rest, in 64s (35-40s rest)
8 minute jog
3 mile threshold (4:59-4:52-4:48)
64s at altitude is probably around 62s on flat, which would be his exact 3k pace. Followed by 3 mile threshold at Daniel's threshold, so no jogging.
On FLAT place (hometown)
800 in 2:25, 400 jog
10x400 in 65-63-63-63-63-62-62-61-60-59 with 100 JOG rest (35-45s rest)
400 jog after last One
5x200-29-28-28-28-27 with 200 jog rest
5 minute jog
2 mile tempo- (5:15-5:07)
Again they were ~3k pace, progressing down to mile pace all on very short rest (a bit more than 30s, but it's active jogging/shuffling). The 200s were around 800m effort, and the tempo very relaxed at Tinman Tempo/MP.
Judging from his workouts he is already in great shape again. The VO2MAX work seems to be more important in Tinman Elite now after they collectively underperformed at Boston 5k. I will try one of these workouts myself next week I think.
Philip, can you share a link or original source that shows these workouts? From what I know of Tinman, it makes little sense as anything other than a substitute for a race. I just can't believe it's the staple that you think it is.
On the other hand, it's more reasonable if Hunter is taking 60+ seconds to run the 100m recoveries.
And I think 64 seconds at altitude may convert to 64 seconds at sea level. Especially when you are running 400s at your 5K pace (13:20, even without rounding error).
Also worth noting that the 10x400 included 5 at around 5K pace and 5 averaging 3K pace. With the first 800 at marathon pace.
All of which is to say, any of us using this as inspiration for routinely running 10-12 x 400 at 3K pace with 40 seconds rest would just be looking for an excuse to run workouts harder than we should.
Thanks, Meek. I haven't seen his workouts on strava before. Do you agree with Philip that it's a frequent workout?
I just had a chance to look carefully at the first of these, and notice that while the rest is clearly very short, the average pace on his 400s is just over 64. Not sure if any of you strava users know why the pace in the pace column averages 4:22/mile, which is about a second slower after removing a weird outlier. Still a hard workout, but closer to his 5K pace than 3K pace.
LateRunnerPhil wrote:
Sure, Cabral over-exaggerated his own ability as runner (he was exposed on these forums), to improve his reputation as coach.
"over-exaggerated"? He claimed to have a run national record at an Olympic track distance! By telling such a ridiculous lie (among others) he just completely discredited himself and led many to question his sanity when he could be so easily found out. Besides, any even half-decent coach will have no need to lie about their performances.
LateRunnerPhil wrote:
Tinman claimed to have run a 15 low 5k in his active running career, can you prove that? Cabral probably was not the only coach who presented himself better than he was.
I am sure that Tinman is able to provide evidence for his 5k performance and even then you are suggesting a totally different type of thing. If Tinman claimed to have been trading national mile records with guys like Steve Scott in the 1970s he would have been simply laughed out of the running community a long time ago. Yet Cabral did the same sort of thing.
LateRunnerPhil wrote:
Cabral probably was not the only coach who presented himself better than he was, but he displayed a solid amount of running knowledge especially in his conversations/debates with Hadd (who got REAL credentials as elite coach) on these boards ~10 years ago.
Through name dropping, trying to give the impression that he hung around elite athletes and coaches, and lying about his credentials, Cabral managed to give the superficial impression for a while on forums that he probably knew something about running. But the reality is that most posters, including yourself know have a far better understanding of what it takes to improve and approach your potential.
Congrats on your 5k on the other thread BTW .