Destroying mitochondria? If your mitochondria was destroyed you would be dead. What kind of a weird tittle is this? High intensity training trains different energy systems but it does not destroy your mitochondria.
It's just stupid stuff people say to sound intelligent.
Mitochondria get bigger when you train a lot. And smaller when you don't. The oxidative capacity remains the same, because it's an essential function for everyone regardless of fitness.
with Scott Christensen,Stillwater Area High School (MN) Head Track & Field / Cross Country Coach;5x Minnesota State Boys Track & Field team champions;5x Minn...
Most of the confusion in this thread is over semantics. Here, in this video, "lactate training" refers to workouts where the runner goes into the anaerobic zone. OTOH, "lactate threshold training" refers to aerobic zone training at the upper level just before the runner goes into the anaerobic zone.
I mean, im not confused. There are mmol cutoffs right there. If you thinking threshold training is above 7mmol, that's another problem. But if you're doing classic speed work, yeah, it's going to have an impact on your aerobic system.
I mean, im not confused. There are mmol cutoffs right there. If you thinking threshold training is above 7mmol, that's another problem. But if you're doing classic speed work, yeah, it's going to have an impact on your aerobic system.
No, it's not. Aerobic respiration is a basic biological function. You aren't damaging your Aerobic Capacity by doing speed work.
Mitochondrial turnover is a natural regeneration. Don't overthink it. Just work out a sensible training plan for you.
Exercise stimulates mitochondrial biogenesis and increases mitochondrial respiratory function and content. However, during high-intensity exercise muscle pH can decrease below pH 6.8 with a concomitant increase in lactate con...
In conclusion, we observed that short-term physiological alterations in extracellular pH and lactate result in alterations in Akt phosphorylation and HDAC5 localization, suggesting the potential for alterations in mitochondrial biogenesis and function. Indeed, we found that mitochondrial function was decreased with a low pH. There were also changes in the mRNA expression of PGC-1α with a high pH. However, we did not observe any alterations in the expression or activation of a number of other proteins or genes proposed to be involved in mitochondrial biogenesis. Due to the transient nature of changes in mRNA expression and protein activation, it is possible we were not able to detect some changes that may have occurred. Future work will be required to establish if changes in mRNA expression occur at time points beyond 6 h.
This trope goes back to Lydiard. I am unconvinced that low pH destroys aerobic capacity and am certain that threshold and sub threshold work does nothing but add to aerobic capacity.
I think, that the “drop” of aerobic capacity seen with anaerobic work is a function of the fact that when you work a aerobically, you can spend far less TIME at your optimal training intensity for aerobic development.
if you spend your training energy doing too much of B, it’s hard to be as good at doing A. It’s just that simple.
I mean, im not confused. There are mmol cutoffs right there. If you thinking threshold training is above 7mmol, that's another problem. But if you're doing classic speed work, yeah, it's going to have an impact on your aerobic system.
No, it's not. Aerobic respiration is a basic biological function. You aren't damaging your Aerobic Capacity by doing speed work.
Mitochondrial turnover is a natural regeneration. Don't overthink it. Just work out a sensible training plan for you.
Yes, thanks for the advice. Already have a sensible plan and it doesnt involve spending great portions of the years continually going over 7.0 mmol in lactate in workouts, 'speed' or otherwise.
Just like everything, there's a time and a place for that type of work, and it really is an either/or proposition: you either want your power coming more from your aerobic system or more from your glycolytic system, but you cant keep turning both knobs at the same time.
No, it's not. Aerobic respiration is a basic biological function. You aren't damaging your Aerobic Capacity by doing speed work.
Mitochondrial turnover is a natural regeneration. Don't overthink it. Just work out a sensible training plan for you.
Yes, thanks for the advice. Already have a sensible plan and it doesnt involve spending great portions of the years continually going over 7.0 mmol in lactate in workouts, 'speed' or otherwise.
Just like everything, there's a time and a place for that type of work, and it really is an either/or proposition: you either want your power coming more from your aerobic system or more from your glycolytic system, but you cant keep turning both knobs at the same time.
Aerobic power is a misnomer. What we need to work on is economy and endurance. The ability to develop these traits involves movement skills, fantastically complicated neural signal, pathways and memories.
Trying to explain these improvements in metabolic terms is nonsense. But that's what most coaches try to do, because that's what they were taught years or even decades ago.
This trope goes back to Lydiard. I am unconvinced that low pH destroys aerobic capacity and am certain that threshold and sub threshold work does nothing but add to aerobic capacity.
I think, that the “drop” of aerobic capacity seen with anaerobic work is a function of the fact that when you work a aerobically, you can spend far less TIME at your optimal training intensity for aerobic development.
if you spend your training energy doing too much of B, it’s hard to be as good at doing A. It’s just that simple.
Some people find this mitochondria-thing very tough to accept, for some reason. But if you think about it, it agrees with what we already know happens with our bodies.
Train hard > see benefits.
Train harder > see more benefits.
Train too hard, for too long > take a step back (at least temporarily).
It shouldn't be a surprise that what we already know applies to us as a whole, applies to our mitochondria on a cellular level.
Aerobic power is a misnomer. What we need to work on is economy and endurance. The ability to develop these traits involves movement skills, fantastically complicated neural signal, pathways and memories.
Trying to explain these improvements in metabolic terms is nonsense. But that's what most coaches try to do, because that's what they were taught years or even decades ago.
^^ this. It's not the dilithium flux capacitor, it's the skill/economy. Does 21 year old Jakob I have better mitochondria than 19 year old JI, or does he have better economy and skill? Years doing the same weekly schedule...
In conclusion, we observed that short-term physiological alterations in extracellular pH and lactate result in alterations in Akt phosphorylation and HDAC5 localization, suggesting the potential for alterations in mitochondrial biogenesis and function. Indeed, we found that mitochondrial function was decreased with a low pH. There were also changes in the mRNA expression of PGC-1α with a high pH. However, we did not observe any alterations in the expression or activation of a number of other proteins or genes proposed to be involved in mitochondrial biogenesis. Due to the transient nature of changes in mRNA expression and protein activation, it is possible we were not able to detect some changes that may have occurred. Future work will be required to establish if changes in mRNA expression occur at time points beyond 6 h.
Are the authors aware what causes acidosis?
Are they aware of the different biochemistry of using Glucose versus Glycogen? I doubt it. The distinction is almost never made in these research papers. It just gets dumbed down to 'glycolysis'.
There's the real short term alteration in mitochondrial function. Glycogen depletion in the more powerful fibers happens at every pace. Blood glucose has to fill the void, but it can't replace Glycogen quickly, so the mitochondria can't do the work.
Right, but the point here would be to identify what is causing a lower ph environment i.e. acidity.
It's really hard to know what you getting at here, but there does seem to be some association of ideas here.
What it seems like you what be trying to say, maybe, is
a. lactate is always present
b. at some point the accumulation of lactate outstrips the body's ability to combust lactate c. ph plummets due to the increase of the byproducts of glycolysis i.e. hydrogen ions
That's always why a significant limiting factor in doing VO2 max work will be the accumulation of lactate and byproducts of glycolysis. If you can do the right intervention (rest protocolo) to combust (clear) the lactate produced you can remove that as a limiting factor in your VO2 workouts
In conclusion, we observed that short-term physiological alterations in extracellular pH and lactate result in alterations in Akt phosphorylation and HDAC5 localization, suggesting the potential for alterations in mitochondrial biogenesis and function. Indeed, we found that mitochondrial function was decreased with a low pH. There were also changes in the mRNA expression of PGC-1α with a high pH. However, we did not observe any alterations in the expression or activation of a number of other proteins or genes proposed to be involved in mitochondrial biogenesis. Due to the transient nature of changes in mRNA expression and protein activation, it is possible we were not able to detect some changes that may have occurred. Future work will be required to establish if changes in mRNA expression occur at time points beyond 6 h.
Are the authors aware what causes acidosis?
Are they aware of the different biochemistry of using Glucose versus Glycogen? I doubt it. The distinction is almost never made in these research papers. It just gets dumbed down to 'glycolysis'.
There's the real short term alteration in mitochondrial function. Glycogen depletion in the more powerful fibers happens at every pace. Blood glucose has to fill the void, but it can't replace Glycogen quickly, so the mitochondria can't do the work.
Hydrogen ions. surely you are aware of that, pretty well known for ever at this point.
This trope goes back to Lydiard. I am unconvinced that low pH destroys aerobic capacity and am certain that threshold and sub threshold work does nothing but add to aerobic capacity.
I think, that the “drop” of aerobic capacity seen with anaerobic work is a function of the fact that when you work a aerobically, you can spend far less TIME at your optimal training intensity for aerobic development.
if you spend your training energy doing too much of B, it’s hard to be as good at doing A. It’s just that simple.
Yes this dogma goes way back. But I don't believe it's realistic to talk about improving Aerobic Capacity because it's a basic biological function. Improving Aerobic Endurance is what we should be discussing.
Are they aware of the different biochemistry of using Glucose versus Glycogen? I doubt it. The distinction is almost never made in these research papers. It just gets dumbed down to 'glycolysis'.
There's the real short term alteration in mitochondrial function. Glycogen depletion in the more powerful fibers happens at every pace. Blood glucose has to fill the void, but it can't replace Glycogen quickly, so the mitochondria can't do the work.
Hydrogen ions. surely you are aware of that, pretty well known for ever at this point.
Hydrogen ions. surely you are aware of that, pretty well known for ever at this point.
What about em?
The fact that you are asking that question shows pretty much where you're understanding of basic distinctions in physiology has stopped.
What process produces hydrogen ions? What is the ph of hydrogen ions? What would the prevalence of hydrogen ions in the blood do to the ph of said blood?
Aerobic power is a misnomer. What we need to work on is economy and endurance. The ability to develop these traits involves movement skills, fantastically complicated neural signal, pathways and memories.
Trying to explain these improvements in metabolic terms is nonsense. But that's what most coaches try to do, because that's what they were taught years or even decades ago.
^^ this. It's not the dilithium flux capacitor, it's the skill/economy. Does 21 year old Jakob I have better mitochondria than 19 year old JI, or does he have better economy and skill? Years doing the same weekly schedule...
It also partly explains why we can keep improving through our 20s and even 30s sometimes beyond that.
The fact that you are asking that question shows pretty much where you're understanding of basic distinctions in physiology has stopped.
What process produces hydrogen ions? What is the ph of hydrogen ions? What would the prevalence of hydrogen ions in the blood do to the ph of said blood?
The H+ comes from ATP Hydrolysis.
You didn't read my post. Read it carefully. Then read it again. And keep reading it until he the light bulb goes on in your brain.
Aerobic power is a misnomer. What we need to work on is economy and endurance. The ability to develop these traits involves movement skills, fantastically complicated neural signal, pathways and memories.
Trying to explain these improvements in metabolic terms is nonsense. But that's what most coaches try to do, because that's what they were taught years or even decades ago.
^^ this. It's not the dilithium flux capacitor, it's the skill/economy. Does 21 year old Jakob I have better mitochondria than 19 year old JI, or does he have better economy and skill? Years doing the same weekly schedule...
A 21 year old Jakob has a higher lactate threshold than a 19 year old Jakob. Also, a 21 year old Jakob has taken some time to 'raise his ceiling' to be able to run at a higher percentage of that vo2max (ceiling) than he was able to previously. Every year since he started running his lactate threshold has occurred at a greater speed. It's kind of been their entire modus operandi and this is why you can see a 3:28/12:48.
Surely you have been following their training? When was this guy 'uneconomical' or 'unskillful'? Those terms are really not describing very much in this context. What you can describe and, particularly in Jakobs case, measure, is what i just raised above.
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