Driven snow wrote:
I think anyone who literally is able to see an endocrinologist is suspect. Same for vitamins. I literally can't see an endocrinologist and I literally don't even know what a vitamin is. As for TUE, that's an abbreviation for Tuesday. Anyone not like this is literally a doper. No gray areas -- there is WHITE, and there is doping. Got it?
Literally, like literally.
doper doper doper
Mom ! get me my nachos!
I take Hasay at her word, but for me the issue comes from the athletes not knowing if they are being doped. If you’re telling me that the coach is up to shifty sh!t… It doesn’t take much imagination for me to think that the athlete is being exposed to PED’s without their knowledge. Basically, if you're a professional athlete in this day I am suspicious. It's sad, but it comes with the territory. It's an unfortunate reality of athletics these days.
Letsrun podcast wrote:
LateRunnerPhil wrote:
Where do we draw the line? These athletes have perfectly normal thyroid functions/values, vitamin D levels, etc. By pushing them over and giving them more than needed we extend their abilities to run, recover and their performance.
I never said anything against Hasay, she might be clean but is still taking more things than other elites are. Salazar was taking the enhancement of performance by using drugs to the highest level possible, without the drugs his athletes would become just another version of himself if they kept up their huge training load.
Things that differentiate many Salazar athletes from others:
- yes, many take vitamin D, calcium, fish oil (omega 3), magnesium, iron, etc. but Salazar does not just use them to balance deficiencies, or give a slight boost, he is actively trying to reach the highest level possible for maximum performance
- he is using stuff that is much lesser known, like calcitonine, beta-alanine, aminos, l-carnitine (nutramet). all performance-enhancing
- he is abusing thyroid medications to gain performance boosts - these meds were supposed to help people with hashimoto's, no thyroid or a severely underfunctioning on to be able to function normally, not to enable highly-functional people with no thyroid problems to train even harder
Hasay is off the hook for 3) - but the combination of 1) and 2) still contains many things that only few elites will use to this extent, and while not in direct breach of doping violations DO give them advantages over those who don't.
So unless you are saying to level the field we should be putting athletes who don't want to abuse meds like Muir, Willis etc on all of this stuff NOP athletes DO have an advantage that is not just related to more and harder training.
Just think about bodyweight - most female runners would be easily getting stress fractures or underperform at the BMI of Koko or Hassan, but the combination of these meds, and especially the calcitonine toothpaste allow them to perform well at their weights.
I remember a Letsrun podcast years ago where they interviewed AlSal. He said that the only useful supplements that he gave to his athletes were magnesium and fish oil and that was it.
That's because they aren't controversial - most hobby joggers are taking them. If you read the report, you get a glimpse of the stuff he has been doing which is absolutely massive/insane. All elites/coaches downplay the stuff they are using, first so they don't look like their performance is significantly boosted by supps, PEDs, infusions, thyroid meds, etc. and second so other competitive athletes don't find out about stuff that would improve their own performance.
http://www.interpool.tv/images/stories/PDF/sport/Interim%20Report%20to%20TMB%20(March%2017,%202016).pdfsome quotes:
"Hi Dathan, I think beta alanine, aminos, fish oils, iron, calcium for you,
possibly magnesium- am checking with UK docs on this, calcitonen, vit d
, and then this new stuff [i.e., Nutramet]. I don't think I'm going to
reorder any more of the other herbal stuff. There is just no hard
evidence it does anything for testosterone levels or recovery, -
Alberto"
(Nutramet is L-carnitine in case people don't know). He was obsessed by finding anything that would boost testosterone levels that is not on the anti-doping list. He was circumventing the official anti-doping measures by inventing and finding new ways to improve performance that no one else knew off. For example, L-carnitine infusions greatly increase TSH-values (as evidenced by Rupp), which require to be treated with higher dosages of lexythyroxine and cytomel (which he immediately prescribed to Rupp). But he kept all of this a secret - instead of sharing it with the world, he e-mailed this to Rupp:
"Hi Galen , take a full extra levoxyl tonight and start on cytomel right
away. We're not going to wait for another TSH test. You've been sick
before and never had a TSH go to 3.0. It's got to be the Lcarnitine. This
is great news! no one else will know this possible side effect of the
drink. -Alberto. Ps – vie [I’ve] got cytomel. If you don't have it, call me and
I'll drive it over."
I take it as a given. Especially given the sucker punch manner in which this ban was imposed. Pulling Salazar out of the stands mid championships. 99% of newspaper writers and internet blabbers not reading either the report or Sal's reply before jumping to conclusions. Hasay being just about to race. That it is more than fair to give her awhile even after the race to read the report and try to figure out for herself what is going on. And how weird it must be. That she no longer has the right to ask Salazar directly- what the heck is going on?
""Hi Galen , take a full extra levoxyl tonight and start on cytomel right
away. We're not going to wait for another TSH test. You've been sick
before and never had a TSH go to 3.0. It's got to be the Lcarnitine. This
is great news! no one else will know this possible side effect of the
drink. -Alberto. Ps – vie [I’ve] got cytomel. If you don't have it, call me and
I'll drive it over.""
Just this single f*cking email should be grounds for this cheater to be out of coaching forever. F*ck this guy seriously.
Sounds like your typical PR BS so she can distance herself from the guy after having benefiting from him all these years.
just this single f*cking email wrote:
""Hi Galen , take a full extra levoxyl tonight and start on cytomel right
away. We're not going to wait for another TSH test. You've been sick
before and never had a TSH go to 3.0. It's got to be the Lcarnitine. This
is great news! no one else will know this possible side effect of the
drink. -Alberto. Ps – vie [I’ve] got cytomel. If you don't have it, call me and
I'll drive it over.""
Just this single f*cking email should be grounds for this cheater to be out of coaching forever. F*ck this guy seriously.
Yes. As I said, Salazar was constantly looking for loopholes in the anti-doping laws, to get an advantage for his athletes. This e-mail alone shows:
1) He was playing doctor with his athletes. After trying the L-carnitine, he noticed a significant increase in TSH. L-carnitine infusions were quite new at that time and there certainly haven't been any bigger studies done on the effect on thyroid hormones. Instead of sharing this information with the public, or consulting his own doctors, he decides to immediately overdose T4 AND T3. T3 is rarely prescribed in it's true form (cytomel) due to all the side effects and because there is no need since we can transform T4 into T3. He just wanted to get Rupp's performance back ASAP so he could keep up the 130 mile weeks with CRAZY workouts and intensity (hard easy runs).
2) He did not care about the health of his athletes. Instead of carefully discussing with a team of doctors/medical experts on what to do after L-carnitine triggered changes in thyroid hormones, he just bruteforces T4 and T3 meds on his athlete, not thinking about damaging side-effects it can have (Rupp was on 200mcg T4 as base level, so doubling that AND adding cytomel on top of it is like injecting 20 liters of blood in a human for blood doping).
3) He was bragging about this being a distinct advantage to NOP athletes. This shows that he didn't just want to make good runners by great training and hard work, but that he wanted to use dubious meds/infusions/supps to boost the performance without other runners/running groups knowing about them. This goes against the competitive spirit of T&F!
As I said earlier in this thread, no one of us who read all the reports in detail (over 900 pages in total) and did research about thyroid, L-carnitine infusions etc affecting performance, thinks that Hasay or other NOP athletes were using EPO, blood doping or whatever is red on the doping list. Salazar knew exactly what was allowed and what not, and was looking specifically into things that boost performance but don't trigger on any tests. Some of these things (l-carnitine infusions, thyroids, etc) are commonly known, but some of them are still being kept a secret at Nike. Most of the things came to light by Magness/Ritz who left NOP ages ago, since then Nike and Salazar have found other, better methods to improve performance that are NOT yet known to anti-doping agencies and chances are most, if not all of the athletes use some of them.
not my real name wrote:
discus...
No, shot put.
We need to face the facts. Hasay has repeatedly chosen the wrong option in her career. She could have gone to Stanford and gotten an education, but she chose to go to Oregon which has less than zero academic credibility and has always been a suspect doping program. She chose to go with Nike, even though 95% of all dopers are Nike athletes. She chose to go to NOP and Salazar even though they have been well known organized dopers since their precursor Athletics West, that's 40 years of doping.
Hasay has publicly admitted to taking every hairbrained supplement from beet juice onward. It just doesn't seem plausible that NOP is going to have an athlete who isn't on the doping protocol, and Hasay certainly has the willingness to seek out every unfair advantage.
I realize that plenty of her apologists and enablers here are giving her a pass because they think that this very average looking person is cute. I feel sorry for those who live in a place where the standards of cuteness are so low.
She shares a devout Catholic faith with Alberto, which makes her even more gullible to manipulation by him. Just saying that that is part of the dynamic here: acting on belief and faith rather than rationality.
Clothilde wrote:
We need to face the facts. Hasay has repeatedly chosen the wrong option in her career. She could have gone to Stanford and gotten an education, but she chose to go to Oregon which has less than zero academic credibility and has always been a suspect doping program. She chose to go with Nike, even though 95% of all dopers are Nike athletes. She chose to go to NOP and Salazar even though they have been well known organized dopers since their precursor Athletics West, that's 40 years of doping.
Hasay has publicly admitted to taking every hairbrained supplement from beet juice onward. It just doesn't seem plausible that NOP is going to have an athlete who isn't on the doping protocol, and Hasay certainly has the willingness to seek out every unfair advantage.
I realize that plenty of her apologists and enablers here are giving her a pass because they think that this very average looking person is cute. I feel sorry for those who live in a place where the standards of cuteness are so low.
——-
And that last paragraph demonstrates the shallowness of your deductive reasoning.
YMMV wrote:
She shares a devout Catholic faith with Alberto, which makes her even more gullible to manipulation by him. Just saying that that is part of the dynamic here: acting on belief and faith rather than rationality.
Catholics have flat out stated to me that Salazar couldn't be guilty of this because he has a devout catholic. So are the pedophile Jerry Sandusky and all the pedophile catholic priests. So was Al Capone and the mafia. So was Adolf Hitler.
It seems as if I remember Salazar's catholicism being a large factor in why he was able to sucker in Rupp, Cain and Hasay.
Affinity fraud is a type of investment fraud in which a con artist targets members of an identifiable group based on things such as race, age, religion, etc. The fraudster either is or pretends to be, a member of the group. Often the fraudster promotes a Ponzi or pyramid scheme. Good examples of affinity fraud are Bernie Madoff using his jewishness to exploit the greed of other jews, the huge number of mormon fraudsters suckering in greedy mormons, and Salazar using catholicism to attract his victims.
Hasay was always treated better on this forum than Mary Cain, in large part because she was perceived to be better looking by the admittedly low low thresholds of the inclusive posters.
Montesquieu wrote:
Hasay joined the Oregon Project in the summer of 2013. Shortly after joining she ran the "B" standard of 31:46 for 10,000. In 2014, with a year at NOP she ran 31:39 (she also ran a 4:07 1500 PR that summer); in 2015, with two years at NOP she ran 32:46; and in 2016, with three full years under her belt at NOP she ran 31:58. In the 5,000 her times for the same years were 15:50, 15:28, 15:45, 15:32.
Now, with a similar time frame of three years, look at many of the women at the Bowerman Track Club--Shelby, Schweizer, Frerichs (add Kincaid to the list). Incredible improvements from college. I mention this not to indict them: great coaching sometimes yields great results. Yet Hasay . . .
So, to Hasay's critics I ask, how does one explain her mediocre track performances, not for one year, not for two years, but for three full years? If it is through performance enhancing drugs that she now succeeds, why didn't she perform better earlier? Shouldn't this give one pause before unqualifiedly accusing her?
As an NOP apologist who's now being forced to confront the crap that's been smeared all over his face for years, you're obligated ask intentionally stupid questions aimed at misdirecting, not enlightening, anyone who's reading. Also, you have no intention of considering reasonable answers to these questions (such as "Hasay's long-term focus was always gonna be the marathon, where the money is anyway") because you'll just reply with more off-topic hypotheticals along the lines of "If so and so is doping, why has she even lost a single race?"
"...the women at the Bowerman Track Club--Shelby, Schweizer, Frerichs (add Kincaid to the list). Incredible improvements from college. I mention this not to indict them..."
Admit it: Either you agree that everyone's doping but think Salazar's the better coach anyway (and maybe this is indeed the case) or you refuse on principle to consider the idea your idols are flawed no matter now clear the evidence. It might be best to just wipe the crap off your face and accept reality instead. Regardless, you're obviously trolling with these questions, not participating in anything resembling good faith.
Vogueing wrote:
Hasay was always treated better on this forum than Mary Cain, in large part because she was perceived to be better looking by the admittedly low low thresholds of the inclusive posters.
Both those chicks are below average.
Eyeball proof:
Rupp is a faster miler than Jim Ryun.
Mo is a faster miler than Steve Cram.
Jordan is a faster marathoner than just about everybody.
NOP results are about as legit as the seemingly endless train of 17 year old Kenyans running sub 27s after one month of training.
That one email is certainly more troubling than most of what i've seen. Perhaps, since there are so many pages to review, it could be of use to put together a -Hey Jordan make sure you notice this -thread. Of evidence for her to read after her race. I think this email which you have brought up. and the email to Lance talking about the time advantage for an ironman athlete who megadoses on l-carnitine are emails Jordan should see.
Heckor wrote:
That one email is certainly more troubling than most of what i've seen. Perhaps, since there are so many pages to review, it could be of use to put together a -Hey Jordan make sure you notice this -thread. Of evidence for her to read after her race. I think this email which you have brought up. and the email to Lance talking about the time advantage for an ironman athlete who megadoses on l-carnitine are emails Jordan should see.
Why would she need to see evidence? She was there to witness it and participate in it firsthand.
I have seen no evidence that she witnessed it or saw it first hand. Your testimony so far is worthless. Care to bring in any evidence?
