Katelyn Tuohy’s season over

rojo wrote:

webby wrote:

I thought it was obvious that I wasn't criticizing Tuohy, her coach, or the idea that runners can train like beasts in high school and be great forever -- which I believe is true.

I was criticizing the obsession with relentless linear progress propogated by many, including many on this thread, most notably rojo. I believe that runners like the great pros I cited have suffered from lack of patience.

I think Tuohy is a stud and will stay that way. I wouldn't dream of criticizing her approach to training and racing based on anything I've seen so far.

I don't think running is always linear. When someone has a huge breakthrough year, I always say, "Hey it's really hard to top that as people tend to forget everything went right the year before."

That being said, the reality is most HSers ( particularly boys) are going to improve a ton each year assuming they don't get hurt. As a) you are getting naturally stronger and b) you are generally training more each year.

Now if someone is already training at a high level and physically developed than a pause in PRs can be more likely to occur.

I'm not saying she's finished. All I said is as a fan of the sport and having watched Cain, Efraimson, and even Candace Hill in recent years that this makes me nervous.

Now we don't know all of the story. If there is an an illness or injury, then I'd be less nervous.

The issue isn't burnout - it's female development. We almost should ignore amazing times before 11th grade.

rojo wrote:

webby wrote:

I thought it was obvious that I wasn't criticizing Tuohy, her coach, or the idea that runners can train like beasts in high school and be great forever -- which I believe is true.

I was criticizing the obsession with relentless linear progress propogated by many, including many on this thread, most notably rojo. I believe that runners like the great pros I cited have suffered from lack of patience.

I think Tuohy is a stud and will stay that way. I wouldn't dream of criticizing her approach to training and racing based on anything I've seen so far.

I don't think running is always linear. When someone has a huge breakthrough year, I always say, "Hey it's really hard to top that as people tend to forget everything went right the year before."

That being said, the reality is most HSers ( particularly boys) are going to improve a ton each year assuming they don't get hurt. As a) you are getting naturally stronger and b) you are generally training more each year.

Now if someone is already training at a high level and physically developed than a pause in PRs can be more likely to occur.

I'm not saying she's finished. All I said is as a fan of the sport and having watched Cain, Efraimson, and even Candace Hill in recent years that this makes me nervous.

Now we don't know all of the story. If there is an an illness or injury, then I'd be less nervous.

The issue isn't burnout - it's female development. We almost should ignore amazing times before 11th grade.

Soooooo wrote:

rojo wrote:

I don't think running is always linear. When someone has a huge breakthrough year, I always say, "Hey it's really hard to top that as people tend to forget everything went right the year before."

That being said, the reality is most HSers ( particularly boys) are going to improve a ton each year assuming they don't get hurt. As a) you are getting naturally stronger and b) you are generally training more each year.

Now if someone is already training at a high level and physically developed than a pause in PRs can be more likely to occur.

I'm not saying she's finished. All I said is as a fan of the sport and having watched Cain, Efraimson, and even Candace Hill in recent years that this makes me nervous.

Now we don't know all of the story. If there is an an illness or injury, then I'd be less nervous.

The issue isn't burnout - it's female development. We almost should ignore amazing times before 11th grade.

I agree Rojo. Underclass times for girls are irrelevant. It’s the rule rather than the exception these girls burn out. It’s a shame but the reality.

Dr Taboo wrote:

rojo wrote:

In my mind, the following are all true about weight.

a) weight matters but

b) it's unhealthy as hell to be anorexic.

c) It's uncomfortable as hell to talk about healthy eating/weight but probably does need to be talked about.

So it's hard to balance all three.

^This^

Everyone tries to pretend that weight doesn't matter, but it does. If you mention it, suddenly you are "attacking" a child. They say, don't talk about weight to a girl, you will cause her to be anorexic. Well, that's horseshit! You know what causes young women to become anorexic? Unrealistic expectations. The people who tell them, don't worry about weight, it will be OK, are the people who cause anorexia. Telling a kid that doesn't have the body type that they can be a top level, elite 5K runner is nonsense. They may be an OK runner, but they will never truly be elite. They can see exactly what the girls running fast times look like. Cross Country being a "no cut sport" has done more for anorexia than anything else. Better to cut a girl and suggest they try a different sport, than to fill their heads with the "yes you can" mantra when we know they can't.

Why is it so taboo to tell a motivated, talented, girl that wants to be the best at her craft, that she will have to manage her weight? That's not saying "go starve yourself," it's saying to be smart about things and to have a plan. Nutrition as part of the entire picture is important.

Those who want to pretend that weight doesn't matter are doing a disservice to their athletes and coaches that don't talk about it, for fear of "causing anorexia," are actually making it worse! Oh, and I don't want to hear this Allie Kieffer crap either. She is the worst. Just because you may be one in a million, it doesn't mean you should encourage others to base all their hopes and dreams on what is statistically and scientifically unlikely. Tyrone (Muggsy) Bogues played in the NBA while standing a mere 5'3". Because of this, should I encourage my 5'3" son to put all his cards in the NBA basket or should I suggest that maybe he try other sports that better suit his talents and body type? Preaching this "I did it, so you can do it" crap is dangerous. Girls see Allie and her body type and think, hey, I have that body type so I can do it to. Well, it doesn't work like that and she's not being totally honest. She ran her fastest times with a BMI under 17%. Girls that buy into this notion that weight is not an obstacle are the ones that get eating disorders because when they don't succeed, the frustration mounts and down the rabbit hole they go.

Winners of the Women's Olympic 5K since inception:

See if you can find a trend

2016 Vivian Cheruiyot 89 lbs

2012 Meseret Defar 95 lbs

2008 Tirunesh Dibaba 106

2004 Meseret Defar 95 lbs

2000 Gabriela Szabo 93 lbs

1996 Wang Junxia 110 lbs

Can you be a good distance runner weighing over 110 lbs? Of course you can. Can you be the best? If you are being honest with yourself and your athletes, you know that answer already. Stop lying to them!

letsbash the trolls wrote:

Dr Taboo wrote:

^This^

Everyone tries to pretend that weight doesn't matter, but it does. If you mention it, suddenly you are "attacking" a child. They say, don't talk about weight to a girl, you will cause her to be anorexic. Well, that's horseshit! You know what causes young women to become anorexic? Unrealistic expectations. The people who tell them, don't worry about weight, it will be OK, are the people who cause anorexia. Telling a kid that doesn't have the body type that they can be a top level, elite 5K runner is nonsense. They may be an OK runner, but they will never truly be elite. They can see exactly what the girls running fast times look like. Cross Country being a "no cut sport" has done more for anorexia than anything else. Better to cut a girl and suggest they try a different sport, than to fill their heads with the "yes you can" mantra when we know they can't.

Why is it so taboo to tell a motivated, talented, girl that wants to be the best at her craft, that she will have to manage her weight? That's not saying "go starve yourself," it's saying to be smart about things and to have a plan. Nutrition as part of the entire picture is important.

Those who want to pretend that weight doesn't matter are doing a disservice to their athletes and coaches that don't talk about it, for fear of "causing anorexia," are actually making it worse! Oh, and I don't want to hear this Allie Kieffer crap either. She is the worst. Just because you may be one in a million, it doesn't mean you should encourage others to base all their hopes and dreams on what is statistically and scientifically unlikely. Tyrone (Muggsy) Bogues played in the NBA while standing a mere 5'3". Because of this, should I encourage my 5'3" son to put all his cards in the NBA basket or should I suggest that maybe he try other sports that better suit his talents and body type? Preaching this "I did it, so you can do it" crap is dangerous. Girls see Allie and her body type and think, hey, I have that body type so I can do it to. Well, it doesn't work like that and she's not being totally honest. She ran her fastest times with a BMI under 17%. Girls that buy into this notion that weight is not an obstacle are the ones that get eating disorders because when they don't succeed, the frustration mounts and down the rabbit hole they go.

Winners of the Women's Olympic 5K since inception:

See if you can find a trend

2016 Vivian Cheruiyot 89 lbs

2012 Meseret Defar 95 lbs

2008 Tirunesh Dibaba 106

2004 Meseret Defar 95 lbs

2000 Gabriela Szabo 93 lbs

1996 Wang Junxia 110 lbs

Can you be a good distance runner weighing over 110 lbs? Of course you can. Can you be the best? If you are being honest with yourself and your athletes, you know that answer already. Stop lying to them!

It's an age thing you moran.

A mature runner needs to be very lean. Less important for a young and developing runner. And anyone with any sense would rather see a 16-17 year old runner as healthy than anorexic. Only a smattering of sociopathic letsrun trolls and maybe some cold-hearted college coaches would say otherwise.

hs girls coach wrote:

I'm curious - how many of the posters in this thread coach high school girls? I'm a firm believer we should be holding coaches to higher standards rather than writing off kids at the first sign of a challenge.

Our team philosophy around these puberty/long term growth/weight at the HS level:

- Food is good. You should eat it (and eat a lot of it compared to your non running friends).

- The better you fuel and rest your body, the better it will perform for you.

- Your body doesn't always know the difference between school stress, running stress, and relationship stress.

- You will not PR every meet or every season, but if you consistently work and treat your body right, you will be faster as senior than you were as a freshmen.

We talk openly about these things as a team constantly. It's an expectation that you will be faster as a senior than as a freshman, but almost everything athlete has a 6 month period where they struggle and don't see progress over their 4 year career. That's almost always timed around their hips developing. Keep in mind that puberty doesn't happen overnight, but is a 2-4 year process. Yes, most girls start that around 12, but that means most girls are hitting the tail end of it (where hip development is occurring) around their sophomore year. There are plenty of things that coaches can do to support their athletes through that transition.

Maybe we need to shift the conversation to how coaches can support girls going through puberty. I'm frustrated by the amount of wasted talent in this sport (although selfishly it helps our program) as a result of bad coaching choices.