It's not that hard of training, if you build up to it. Build over a 1-2 year cycle.
It's not that hard of training, if you build up to it. Build over a 1-2 year cycle.
The Ingebrigtsen's training is nothing special except that they do more thresholds than most other systems.Up to four workouts per week and often twice a day.
And they use low levels of lactate up to mostly half marathon race pace.If we compare with Kipchoge's program we see he does 1-3 thresholds per week and at least 2 of them at close to half marathon pace.
So, ,,,,,Is the Ingebrigtsen's training system something new that hasn't been done before? No, not really! There are in fact
earlier systems like the Portuguese and Italian that reminds a lot about this emphasizing on threshold pace.The same theme.
I`ve got from Gjert himself that during off season Jacob sometimes did fast 10 x 200m on flat surface just to keep the speed up.Except that ,the workouts were at or close to lactate threshold pace in mostly intervals.
If you look at what Jim Ryun did as a 17 year old you see a lot of similarities to their training. Tons of long threshold workouts like 40 x 400 (although they didn’t call it threshold back then), relatively high mileage for a teen (around 90 mpw), and short speed work.
It would be interesting to see a lot of high schoolers train like this...
https://www.runnerstribe.com/expert-advice/the-training-of-jim-ryun/
Great discussion guys.
Here is a lecture from Seiler summarizing his views on training for anyone interested.
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Thanks for the link to Seiler's talk. One thing I find interesting is that Seiler says the order of training, the sequence in which we implement training, is the least researched. I remember reading some Ants Nurmekivi research studies about 15 years ago. One study showed what the best and worst combinations were when training middle and long distance athletes. He also touched on the correct sequence of implementing workouts. I must admit, I have learned the most about the order of training from trial and error. I accidentally stumbled on it during the preparation phase, while training a 4:18 female 1500 meter runner. She improved to 4:12 that year because I tweaked the order of training during late winter. I will post some of those findings at a later time.
Your head coach wrote:
OldFish. wrote:
The way I see it comes down to the fact that any elite athlete will have his/her VO2max maximized already and any improvement in results will come in way of improving running economy, i.e. running faster at the same given VO2max. Study done on moderately trained individuals shows that threshold training improves economy more than VO2max type intervals or LSD. My speculation would be that threshold intensity is high enough to stimulate improvement and at the same time you can accumulate much higher volume of such intensity compared to 5k or faster type work. As discussed in previous posts, Ingebrigtsen's do a total of around 17k worth of reps at threshold during their threshold days. Can you imagine doing the same amount of reps at 5K or 3K pace? Anyone would be a toast after few days or weeks.
In fact VO2max intervals improves the running economy at 5 k race pace and the thresholds improves running economy at roughly half marathon pace. And then you have the LSD stuff that improves the running economy at that pace. It's three different 'systems' that mixed in a perfect balance gives the very best final 'product'.
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Canova always preaches about not neglecting that pace between easy and LT. I call it "Steady Pace". It is about 8-10% slower than LT pace. It is slower than one hour race pace, but faster than marathon pace.
Steady State wrote:
Your head coach wrote:
In fact VO2max intervals improves the running economy at 5 k race pace and the thresholds improves running economy at roughly half marathon pace. And then you have the LSD stuff that improves the running economy at that pace. It's three different 'systems' that mixed in a perfect balance gives the very best final 'product'.
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Canova always preaches about not neglecting that pace between easy and LT. I call it "Steady Pace". It is about 8-10% slower than LT pace. It is slower than one hour race pace, but faster than marathon pace.
You should not believe in all what the old man says. He is not the all mighty and he has not all the best answers how to find
The Holy Grail of running. It's a big gap between easy and LT with many options.
Steady State wrote:
Your head coach wrote:
In fact VO2max intervals improves the running economy at 5 k race pace and the thresholds improves running economy at roughly half marathon pace. And then you have the LSD stuff that improves the running economy at that pace. It's three different 'systems' that mixed in a perfect balance gives the very best final 'product'.
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Canova always preaches about not neglecting that pace between easy and LT. I call it "Steady Pace". It is about 8-10% slower than LT pace. It is slower than one hour race pace, but faster than marathon pace.
Your mathematics is not the very best. If you add 8 % on Kipchoge's LT pace at about 2:46 min/ k you get about 2:59 min/ k , and that is slower than his marathon pace.
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Canova always preaches about not neglecting that pace between easy and LT. I call it "Steady Pace". It is about 8-10% slower than LT pace. It is slower than one hour race pace, but faster than marathon pace.[/quote]
Your mathematics is not the very best. If you add 8 % on Kipchoge's LT pace at about 2:46 min/ k you get about 2:59 min/ k , and that is slower than his marathon pace.[/quote]
Last I checked, Einstein II wasn’t coaching Kipchoge. He was still coaching HS runners. It explains why your runners always peak in the middle of the season, and then fade!
Instead of two threshold workouts in one day, why not do one threshold workout four days in a row?
I judge from the Ingebrigtsens' tv show that the vast majority of their workouts all year around are by time alone, namely, 3 minute, 6 minute, and 10 minute, plus the hill repeats once a week in the off-season and then eventually the hard 300s at 1500m race pace before the big meets in the summer. (Ingrid was doing 200s on the indoor track in a couple episodes).
A lot of the 3 minute or 6 minute intervals were done around a lake near the track and pool that they use at home.
But of course since they are doing a very consistent pace, the repeats are presumably going to be typically a bit over 1k, a bit more over 2k, and a maybe 3.4k for the 3/6/10 minute repeats.
LateRunnerPhil, I'm curious where you got the information that he does 10x300@39. When the brothers did their first repetition of 300s in around 40-41 in last season's show (shortly before Monaco), Gjert was absolutely irate that they had blown the workout and that they needed to be doing them a few seconds slower and only at the end going at or just below goal 1500m pace.
LateRunnerPhil wrote:
tellmemore wrote:
laterunnerphil, so, his training is based mostly on keeping his runs at a threshold effort, taking into account all the variables of the day? So, not a lot of fast stuff or slow, easy running?
In general yes. In the base phase for example, he only had one session where he produces higher lactate values (2x10x200 at hills).
In competition phase, he definitely has harder sessions too, one staple is 10x300 in ~39s.
Should you copy his training? Probably not, he does 3 hard sessions in base phase, then 4-5 hard sessions in transition phase (often twice a day, with the morning being the easier of the two workouts), before going back to 3 hard sessions in competition phase.
Your coach wrote:
The Ingebrigtsen's training is nothing special except that they do more thresholds than most other systems.Up to four workouts per week and often twice a day.
And they use low levels of lactate up to mostly half marathon race pace.If we compare with Kipchoge's program we see he does 1-3 thresholds per week and at least 2 of them at close to half marathon pace.
So, ,,,,,Is the Ingebrigtsen's training system something new that hasn't been done before? No, not really! There are in fact
earlier systems like the Portuguese and Italian that reminds a lot about this emphasizing on threshold pace.The same theme.
Is there any scientific proof that doing the threshold intervals more than 1-3 times per week would be better,and doing them in doubles on a day? Maybe someone can dig up such a study , but I doubt it. Until then we can just compare different training systems done by world class runners and evaluate their results out from what they actually have done in training and what it has given in races.From such a lay study I think we fast can state that Kipchoge has a better threshold than Ingebrigtsen.
Your head coach wrote:
Your coach wrote:
The Ingebrigtsen's training is nothing special except that they do more thresholds than most other systems.Up to four workouts per week and often twice a day.
And they use low levels of lactate up to mostly half marathon race pace.If we compare with Kipchoge's program we see he does 1-3 thresholds per week and at least 2 of them at close to half marathon pace.
So, ,,,,,Is the Ingebrigtsen's training system something new that hasn't been done before? No, not really! There are in fact
earlier systems like the Portuguese and Italian that reminds a lot about this emphasizing on threshold pace.The same theme.
Is there any scientific proof that doing the threshold intervals more than 1-3 times per week would be better,and doing them in doubles on a day? Maybe someone can dig up such a study , but I doubt it. Until then we can just compare different training systems done by world class runners and evaluate their results out from what they actually have done in training and what it has given in races.From such a lay study I think we fast can state that Kipchoge has a better threshold than Ingebrigtsen.
In fact a qualified guess would be a lactate threshold at about 4:27-4:28 per mile ( 2:46-2.47 per k ) for Kipchoge and
about 4:34 per mile ( 2:50 per k) for Ingebrigtsen.
Adam Smith wrote:
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Canova always preaches about not neglecting that pace between easy and LT. I call it "Steady Pace". It is about 8-10% slower than LT pace. It is slower than one hour race pace, but faster than marathon pace.
Your mathematics is not the very best. If you add 8 % on Kipchoge's LT pace at about 2:46 min/ k you get about 2:59 min/ k , and that is slower than his marathon pace.[/quote]
Last I checked, Einstein II wasn’t coaching Kipchoge. He was still coaching HS runners. It explains why your runners always peak in the middle of the season, and then fade![/quote]This Einstein II is someone superior coach.
If I had coached the HS kids that you refer to, they would be like rechargeable batteries and just do the great stuff just over and over again.
We utilized lactate testing while at Florida State when I was there. I think it really helped. We qualified to Nationals in XC every year.
SweetPot wrote:
We utilized lactate testing while at Florida State when I was there. I think it really helped. We qualified to Nationals in XC every year.
With a head coach who knows how to do LT training perfect without lactate testing you had not only qualify.
A little bit of insight into his training from Jakob himself:
“We do a lot of mileage. It’s not the traditional 1500m type of training so all in all we’re 5k runners preparing for 1500m in mid-season. I usually do a lot of 5k pace training, so I’d say I’m as good at that as I am at 1500m."
Norwegian dude wrote:
A little bit of insight into his training from Jakob himself:
“We do a lot of mileage. It’s not the traditional 1500m type of training so all in all we’re 5k runners preparing for 1500m in mid-season. I usually do a lot of 5k pace training, so I’d say I’m as good at that as I am at 1500m."
https://london.diamondleague.com/news/single-news/news/detail/News/jakob-ingebrigtsen-in-best-shape-ever-ahead-of-muller-anniversary-games-5000m/
"I usually do a lot of 5 k pace training… " Sounds similar to another great training system I know about….. lol
-MAJIK SUMMER-
Veldig bra. you gotta train like a distance runner - Steve Cram.