Renato Canova defends Federico Rosa, "(It) is not possible to control what they individually do."

casual obsever wrote:

Renato Canova wrote:

5) The obsessed and dishonest mindweak, when speak about 4% of improvement, is totally ridiculous, and ridiculous are all people thinking this possible at top level. I already posted, time ago, numbers that can show how this thesis is completely idiotic, but for who doesn't remember I post again.

...

Really is it possible to think that ALL THOSE ATHLETES WERE DOPED ? Because, if only one of them was clean, all the theory of 4% is not valid, and who thinks that with EPO is really possible to have so much advantage is a total idiot.

Harsh words, yet Professor Olaf Schumacher wrote about EPO that it can "take as much as one minute off the time taken to run 10,000 metres, and proportionately more over lesser distances"

1 minute for a 28' runner is 3.5%, and Schumacher thinks it would be relatively even more in shorter races. So the 4%, while certainly on the high end of experts' estimates, is not "completely idiotic", unless you have evidence that the IAAF uses idiots as experts on their ABP panel.

Also, yes it is possible to think they all doped (though I don't), and if some of them were clean, that would not prove anything other than that they could run faster when doped. Finally, it is basically impossible nowadays to get the full benefits from EPO doping, for one has to hold back a bit because of the ABP (in some countries more than in others).

Let's always keep in mind that the IAAF had (likely more than) 43.6% self-admitted cheats at the 2011 World Championship, which will be more concentrated at the top.

facts and reason wrote:

Doped to the Max wrote:

I often reference Dr. Schumacher on this issue. He has unassailable credentials and as you mentioned, he serves on the "IAAF Expert Panel" that reviews ABP hematological anomalies cases.

https://sportsscientists.com/2009/08/doping-control-interview-with-prof-schumacher/?doing_wp_cron=1548941875.4239521026611328125000

Dr. Schumacher said, "However, as I wrote in the article, performance alone will/ should never be used as proof of doping alone as, after all, competitive sport is about the best performance. And this performance might be achieved by exceptional talent, superior training etc... Not every good performance is doping. I have seen many athletes excelling at Olympic level where I am quite certain that they never used performance enhancing drugs. It´s possible, even against cheats! Definitely not for everyone, and not every day. But with the right talent, the right training and on the right day."

Haha, your anti-doping hero agrees with Canova!

Renato Canova wrote:

Coevett, I'm not soft with dopers. During the registration of the foreigner coaches with AK (something they finally started to do after several years when everybody, without degree, competence and experience could decide to be a "coach" in Kenya), I clearly spoke about the need to ban for not less than 4 years everybody guilty in his first offence, and for life at the second offense.

However, like happens in any Court, we need to have investigation in any INDIVIDUIAL case, because the reasons and the situations are different. I want to follow the law, but I refuse to throw out the baby too with the dirty water.

If a deep investigation finds proves and arguments showing a doping administration by some management, the management MUST be banned for ever. If a Federation is involved, it's correct to ban, till when there are not changes in positive way (see Russia). But we can't forget that athletics is an INDIVIDUAL sport, and that is not fair to involve clean persons (athletes, official, coaches, managers) in the mistakes of other people.

For example, western Countries (specifically US and UK) continued to fight against Russia for its conclamated doping, but forgot to think there are plenty Russian athletes really clean, that suffer for NOT having the opportunity to participate in any activity (not only the institutional) out of their Country. I had in training in Iten, for 3 months last year, the Russian champion of HM (Stepan Kiselev), athletes very humble, very friendly, and totally clean, who NEVER had some answer to his documented request to the IAAF for being included in the list of athletes who can compete abroad like ANA.

Is this right ? Two years without any answer to a request following a protocol.

So, I never can accept any stereotype, like "Kenyan are doped", or "Communists eat babies", or "White are more intelligent", or "Black are more talented", or "Muslims are terrorists", or "Priests are pedophilis", but I look at INDIVIDUALS.

This is something I can't agree about your normal posts. You put all Kenyans in the same pot, when I well know the most part are clean, and specifically the most part of the bests, because are athletes not able to emerge who look at some doping in the wrong idea that is possible to fill the gap.

I told this a lot of time : with some talent I saw in my life, ALL the current WR don't represent any human limit, because in many cases was possible to run still faster. I had the case of Shaheen, who could run under 7'50" in 2006, but wasted the opportunity during Zurich meeting for big mistake of the last pacer (Richard Mateelong), and didn't try again because the season had still some important goal, like to win (only athlete in the history) both 5000m and 3000m steeple in the World Cup (something he did in Athens), and to win 3 gold medals in Asian Games in Doha (1500, 5000 and 10000) something he could not do because the stupid injury that blocked his career when only 24. But we can have many other cases : for example Kenenisa Bekele, who when bettered (twice) the WR of 10,000m, one time was out of shape, the other time was sick.

So, what I say is that who thinks Kenyan win because of doping, really doesn't have any idea about what a talented athlete can do with proper training, and automatically creates mental limits in all the athletes who want to train and compete in clean way. I think the young Ingebrigtsen is an answer to all people thinking not possible

Renato Canova wrote:

Coevett, I'm not soft with dopers. During the registration of the foreigner coaches with AK (something they finally started to do after several years when everybody, without degree, competence and experience could decide to be a "coach" in Kenya), I clearly spoke about the need to ban for not less than 4 years everybody guilty in his first offence, and for life at the second offense.

However, like happens in any Court, we need to have investigation in any INDIVIDUIAL case, because the reasons and the situations are different. I want to follow the law, but I refuse to throw out the baby too with the dirty water.

If a deep investigation finds proves and arguments showing a doping administration by some management, the management MUST be banned for ever. If a Federation is involved, it's correct to ban, till when there are not changes in positive way (see Russia). But we can't forget that athletics is an INDIVIDUAL sport, and that is not fair to involve clean persons (athletes, official, coaches, managers) in the mistakes of other people.

For example, western Countries (specifically US and UK) continued to fight against Russia for its conclamated doping, but forgot to think there are plenty Russian athletes really clean, that suffer for NOT having the opportunity to participate in any activity (not only the institutional) out of their Country. I had in training in Iten, for 3 months last year, the Russian champion of HM (Stepan Kiselev), athletes very humble, very friendly, and totally clean, who NEVER had some answer to his documented request to the IAAF for being included in the list of athletes who can compete abroad like ANA.

Renato Canova wrote:

Coevett, I'm not soft with dopers. During the registration of the foreigner coaches with AK (something they finally started to do after several years when everybody, without degree, competence and experience could decide to be a "coach" in Kenya), I clearly spoke about the need to ban for not less than 4 years everybody guilty in his first offence, and for life at the second offense.

However, like happens in any Court, we need to have investigation in any INDIVIDUIAL case, because the reasons and the situations are different. I want to follow the law, but I refuse to throw out the baby too with the dirty water.

If a deep investigation finds proves and arguments showing a doping administration by some management, the management MUST be banned for ever. If a Federation is involved, it's correct to ban, till when there are not changes in positive way (see Russia). But we can't forget that athletics is an INDIVIDUAL sport, and that is not fair to involve clean persons (athletes, official, coaches, managers) in the mistakes of other people.

For example, western Countries (specifically US and UK) continued to fight against Russia for its conclamated doping, but forgot to think there are plenty Russian athletes really clean, that suffer for NOT having the opportunity to participate in any activity (not only the institutional) out of their Country. I had in training in Iten, for 3 months last year, the Russian champion of HM (Stepan Kiselev), athletes very humble, very friendly, and totally clean, who NEVER had some answer to his documented request to the IAAF for being included in the list of athletes who can compete abroad like ANA.

Is this right ? Two years without any answer to a request following a protocol.

So, I never can accept any stereotype, like "Kenyan are doped", or "Communists eat babies", or "White are more intelligent", or "Black are more talented", or "Muslims are terrorists", or "Priests are pedophilis", but I look at INDIVIDUALS.

This is something I can't agree about your normal posts. You put all Kenyans in the same pot, when I well know the most part are clean, and specifically the most part of the bests, because are athletes not able to emerge who look at some doping in the wrong idea that is possible to fill the gap.

I told this a lot of time : with some talent I saw in my life, ALL the current WR don't represent any human limit, because in many cases was possible to run still faster. I had the case of Shaheen, who could run under 7'50" in 2006, but wasted the opportunity during Zurich meeting for big mistake of the last pacer (Richard Mateelong), and didn't try again because the season had still some important goal, like to win (only athlete in the history) both 5000m and 3000m steeple in the World Cup (something he did in Athens), and to win 3 gold medals in Asian Games in Doha (1500, 5000 and 10000) something he could not do because the stupid injury that blocked his career when only 24. But we can have many other cases : for example Kenenisa Bekele, who when bettered (twice) the WR of 10,000m, one time was out of shape, the other time was sick.

So, what I say is that who thinks Kenyan win because of doping, really doesn't have any idea about what a talented athlete can do with proper training, and automatically creates mental limits in all the athletes who want to train and compete in clean way. I think the young Ingebrigtsen is an answer to all people thinking not possible running fast, if you are not blach and not doped.

In the case of Rosa, I know something that the posters don't know. I know the agreement between the management and IAAF/WADA for fighting doping, I know they started tests with their athletes before putting in some race, I know they removed doubtful athletes from the management (provoking the reaction of Isaiah Kiplagat, who banned the management for some time). And I know, how already explained, that in the type of organization they had, and have, there is a big room of individual opportunities for acting without control, because the number of Camps in the most part of Kenya can't have any strict control by the central management.

I try personally to educate the athletes I coach (together with John Litei) to the right values. becausev I think that only persons with high moral values can become good athletes, able to last at the top for long time. And in my "lessons" always I explain what you think is a lie : DOPING DOESN'T WORK IF YOU HAVE THE RIGHT FOCUS, THE CONTINUITY AND FOLLOW PROPER TRAINING, WITHOUT FEARING NOT POSSIBLE TO RECOVER.

In long distances, blood doping can work with weak athletes, or athletes always training at sea level, or athletes with good talent but too easy training, and without continuity ; NOT with strong athletes, always training in altitude, and hard and proper training. There is not a SUM of physiological variations (the effects of training plus the effects of doping) when the training is at higher level, because already with training the body is pushed at the limits under the physiological point of view, and if we add something in one side, we lose something in another side. The balance of the quality is one of the most important goals of training, and this is possible only if the growth of the aerobic level comes naturally, with graduality and continuity, something not possible with doping.

About steroids, this is another story ; but it seems that the doping campaign is mainly against EPO, that can replace part of training, but can also be replaced by the training itself (something that can't happen taking steroids : with training only is not possible to reach the same level of strength).

Renato Canova wrote:

Why ? Because, if it's legit to have different opinions, it's not legit to defame clean athletes without any proof and any, also little, evidence, showing lack of respect, arrogance, presumption and not consideration of facts.

Because a personal convinction, growing in a sick mind, can't become a FACT valid for try to put discredit in clean persons, who train, work very hard, sacrifying part of their life for some ideal.

Because you can't continue to repeat the same mantra, copying times and times and times again the same post, for showing something that, really, doesn't show anything, considering studies carried out with different subjects.

Because, at the end, he doesn't have the intelligence for understanding that writing suppositions of doping regarding somebody, WITHOUT ANY POSSIBILITY OF SUSPICION (like in the case of Sondre Moen), is an insult very much more important than to say somebody else is an idiot, when writes and believes in thesis than can't exist.

And finally because is a person whose main activity is to create suspicion and confusion in the mind of all non-expert of our sport, giving a wrong image that can makes every attempt of cleaning completely the sport more difficult.

We don't need "taleban" against doping, but people able to teach and to speak (not to the athletes only, but especially to young people in the schools, and to normal persons who dope themselves without knowing, believing in all the promises of the Pharma Companies) explaining that the effects of any medicines with people in good health are, by far, very much different from what generally supposed.

Coevett wrote:

Mind tw@ wrote:

Mindweak should be banned permanently, I do not mind reasoned discussion but he is an idiot who goes around provoking everyone and hasn't got a brain cell to play with.

I used to have a lot of sympathy for Mindweak, if only he'd calm down a bit, as he seemed to be passionate about anti-doping, and the sport does need a few people like that in here.

Then it became evident that he wasn't just a cynic about the state of doping (such as guys like Subway), but he does literally believe that not only every single elite runner in history dopes or did dope, but even sub elites - in fact, anybody who ever ran faster than him - 15:xx (altitude).

And then you have to ask - what is the point of this? Claiming that literally everyone dopes and always has is about as useful to the anti-doping fight as claiming that nobody dopes or that there is no doping problem. That's why I think he could be a paid shill here just as much as Rekrunner and a couple of others appear to be, just disrupting rational discussion on doping from a different extreme angle.

Further, despite myself sticking up for him on numerous occasions, even when he was starting to get extremely wacky - such as claiming even Roger Bannister was using EPO and making threats against Canova - he joined in the mob troll attacks on me, simply because it appears I'm British, and he hates British people (and 'British Commonwealth' people) above all.

Maybe I'm not the best representative of the anti-doping fight here, and we need more rational and measured people here such as Subway, but at least I have provided some evidence for my claims, including evidence that seems to have been overlooked completely in the English speaking running community. Mindweak is just screaming and shouting that everybody faster than himself dopes. I disagree with Canova, who I believe to be honest but too soft on doping (which is hurting clean Kenyan athletes). We don't need an anti-doping Taliban but we do need something stronger than what we have.

I don't know if Mindweak should be banned, but he is just now a maniacal caricature of the LetsRun anti-doper.

Renato Canova wrote:

Casual observer, the answer is very simple : prof. Olaf Schumacher is completely wrong.

Prof. Schumacher doesn't have any idea of what training is, and of the physiological variations can induce. He never tested any top athletes, and never tested their training.

Now I explain WHEN the thesis of Olaf Schumacher can be correct.

A) I'm an athlete who runs 10,000 in 30' with 6 training sessions per week, and a volume of km between 70 and 80 per week.

I continue with the same quantity of training (this means I don't give any STIMULUS to the body), but I take EPO (this can give a new stimulus to the body). With the same volume of training, because of the new physiological stimulus, my time can move from 30' to 29' (the minute of Schumacher). Not only : now I start to think possible moving to two sessions per day, because, with EPO, I can finally recover any tough session (never possible before in my mind : infact I don't have any proof that was not possible, the fact is that I never tried). After this new increase of training, BECAUSE OF TRAINING (and not because of EPO, whose STIMULUS decreases when we increase the training), I remove another minute, running 28' or less (this is the case of Lombard).

B) I'm an athlete who runs 10,000 in 30' with 6 training sessions per week, and a volume of 70-80 km per week.

I meet a coach able convincing me that I can achieve top results increasing my training, and I follow what he says.

In 6 months time I move my training from 6 to 12-13 sessions per week, my mileage from 70 to 200 km per week, and I do all this as part of a project, based on the growing graduality. After 6 months I'm already able to run in 28' without any external support, and, because I'm mentally stronger that the athlete A, I continue to improve till 27' in less than 12 months.

This is not an hypothesis, but is what happened to my last group of athletes.

We open a training camp in Iten at the end of March 2017, without any athletes. Because our personal link with a Catholic Fundation (Complete Sports, athletics training center near Kaptagat, with a very deep education about ethic values), I could put in the camp two athletes who were at the beginning of their activity : Noah Kipkemboi (best results position 33 in National Cross Country 2017) and Daniel Kipchumba (already with the following PB : 8'34"3 (3000m), 14'14"0 (5000m). During the season 2017, Noah Kipkemboi ran 28:52 in 10,000m, and Daniel tried steeple (8:30.0) and 10,000m (29:29.5). Moving to longer distances, Noah ran in 2018 in 60:52 (HM) in Lisbon (less than 1 year after starting training in the camp< and Daniel... 59:06 on 15th April, exactly one year after starting, performance he confirmed on 15th September winning HM in Copenhagen in front of the furure WR holder Abraham Kiptum (again 59:06).

Josphat Boit had his first competition on 5th May 2017 in Nakuru (5000m). He ran 14'25"2 on Sat in the heats, and 14'24"8 nect day in the final. On 15th April 2018 (11 months after his first competition) he ran HM in 59:19. On 16th September he paced 26.5 km in Berlin for Eliud Kipchoge, at the same speed of his first 5000m. This year he will debut in full marathon in Rotterdam, and you can see what he will be able to do.

Eric Kiptanui was athlete for 3'37" in 1500m, and we joined him in order to train with Ronald Kwemoi (3'28"81) for 1500m. During the meeting of Monaco in 2017, Ronald (coming from the best performance ever in altitude with 3'30"89 when won trials in Nairobi) had a stress fracture, and for one year could not train again, so Eric had to try something else.

I moved him to 2 easy road races in Nederland (he won both with 28'52" and 28'49"), and after coming back Kenya started a real preparation for long distances. He had 3 races between 31 December 2017 and 8th April 2018, winning all of them : 27'34" (10 km) in Madrid (31.12), 60:05 (HM) in Lisbon (11.03) and 58:42 (HM) in Berlin (8.04), this after 6 months of specific training coming from 1500m.

What Schumacher can know about this reality ?

So, when do you stop to consider the scientific researches connected with the reality of the top runners ?