Sex before marriage?

I appreciate this thoughtful and reasoned response.

But there are laws in the universe that dictate things. If I jump out of a tree, the natural law of gravity will bring me crashing to the ground. Similarly, if I break a spiritual law like engaging in sex outside of its natural state (marriage) there will be negative consequences. They're not all the same consequences, just like falling out of a tree will not result in the same injury for everyone.

Really? Comparing the law of gravity to a "spiritual law" (whatever that is). Do you even read your own nonsense?

PRDreamer wrote:

numersonly wrote:

I appreciate this thoughtful and reasoned response.

But there are laws in the universe that dictate things. If I jump out of a tree, the natural law of gravity will bring me crashing to the ground. Similarly, if I break a spiritual law like engaging in sex outside of its natural state (marriage) there will be negative consequences. They're not all the same consequences, just like falling out of a tree will not result in the same injury for everyone.

Really? Comparing the law of gravity to a "spiritual law" (whatever that is). Do you even read your own nonsense?

Is it his fault you're ignorant? You think God doesn't have ways things work according to His laws? He made everything didn't he?

muttonchops wrote:

And it's 100% scientifically true that STD's and AIDS would never have existed if every person in history only ever had sex with the one person that also only ever had sex with them. Funny how misuse of this vital part of existence causes so much suffering - physical and emotional.

Um, the first person to get these couldn't have got them from another person.

A person could have got them as a virgin, married and then passed them to their wife who would pass it to their children.

And so it goes.

nutterspro wrote:

He made everything didn't he?

No, he didn't.

well this is traumatizing wrote:

LM, a lot of stuff you're saying makes perfect sense. However, my big questions is this: how do people in non-monogamous relationships not feel completely shattered about their husband or wife f.cking someone else's brains out? I just don't see how I could get over that. Even the thought of it makes my chest feel like an abyss and I'm currently single.

Is that feeling I get simply a function of society programming me to feel that way? If so, how do you delete that software and upload the software that bonobos all seem to have downloaded?

Dude!! I'm dying. Bonobos make players and promiscuous women look like total amateurs :)

Women seem to handle this MUCH better than men. I've been dating non-monogamously for a while and most women don't have a problem with it. Like guys, they aren't thrilled with the idea, but they will generally agree. It seems that between 3/4 and 4/5 are okay with it when they press me on "what are we" and I explain that I will not in the near future, and possibly ever, be monogamous. That 20-25% that aren't okay either tell me right up front they aren't okay, or I just don't hear from them again.

Guys have a harder time as far as I can tell. Some of this is societal conditioning. We are taught that if a girl is out with another guy she is disrespecting you and that you "must be a little wuss if you let other guys bang your girl without doing anything". Girls are shamed for being sluts, and thought of as being dirty if she likes sex and is promiscuous. There is probably some biology at play here too, but I think that's more the jealousy you feel when you find out she did...not when you're trying to get comfortable with the idea and freaking out about other guys having sex with a girl your having sex with.

Common one especially if you're not a guy who has traditionally had an easy time attracting women, is often "OMG but then she is going to sleep with some guy who is way better than me and totally leave me and then I'll have lost her". - What I'd say here is that first off, you'd be surprised how often women DON'T sleep with other guys, even when they can. This becomes more true as women get older. Sometimes they will leave you. If you have other girls you know and date, this isn't a huge loss anymore.

In your case it sounds like you would just feel very betrayed or whatever. Yea, I think that's mostly societal programming. The biology part is the "righteous anger" you might get. Any sadness/disappointment is because society has said that's not supposed to happen. I'd say just try to realize the benefits you can have, realize that sex =/= love and just means she likes a little variety too, and of course remember that it would be almost comically unfair if you were allowed to play around with other women yet demanded she be faithful to you.

The only people who advocate waiting until marriage WAITED UNTIL MARRIAGE. "I don't regret it at all". "Would you rather have sex with a virgin or a girl who slept around. Virgin obviously".

CLEARLY you've never had sex with experienced girls. Who the hell want's to have sex with a virgin prude?

"But you get to experience and grow together".

You can do that with any other girl too. Also, I've dated both. The virgin girl did get "better" but overall she was still terrible and there's a limit to how enjoyable she can get in bed.

If anything, there's TONS of people who REGRET waiting until marriage because their partner just flat out sucks / isn't compatible at all yet they still got married.

One of these has empirical, testable evidence that anyone can verify for themselves. Their is zero evidence for any "spiritual law". You believe in a spirtual law not because of anything you can verify or test for yourself. You believe in it because of how it makes you feel. This is not rational. If you want to have an emotional conversation involving spiritual things without working evidence by all means go ahead, but I will not partake in such a conversation.

Misuse of sex does not destroy lives. Misuse or lack of honesty combined with sex destroys lives. Claiming you'll be faithful when you won't. Telling a girl she is important to you when all you want to do is get yo dick wet. Telling a girl you're looking for something serious just to get her in bed....those are the kinds of things that destroy lives. Having consensual, honest, sex with someone does not destroy lives, and their is ZERO evidence it does.

That word again. What? Designed? I don't even know what you mean. There is no evidence of anything being "designed". Moreover, if we were "designed" for monogomy....why do you have tons of adaptations specifically for....nonmonagmy? Why are people ridiculously bad at monogamy? Why are there numerous primitive cultures that are sexually communal and have notions not of a parent's child but of children being of the "tribe" or group? Why were early humans nonmonagamous? Why are women biologically hardwired to lose sexually interest in the man they are dating/married to after just a few years?

There is a massive pile of evidence pointing strongly against "designed for sex with one person". Yet here you say it again. Your argument has no evidence or reasoning behind it. It's an emotion based belief you have. This is not rational, and there is no point in having a conversation with a non-rational person.

Oh really? So in the beginning there were no STDs, but they were magically spawned when people started having sex with multiple people. Almost like some programmed in thing (if numberOfSexPartners >= 2, then humanHIVStatus = 'y').

I mean what.

If there weren't STD's in humans at the beginning, how did they get to the first human?!

Or was it....some people got these STDs from the environment (where they already existed) due to rare and infrequent mutations that allowed transmissions to humans. Ah...now that makes sense. Then they SPREAD because we are nonmangamous, sexually promiscuous animals.

Normal Person wrote:

The only people who advocate waiting until marriage WAITED UNTIL MARRIAGE. "I don't regret it at all". "Would you rather have sex with a virgin or a girl who slept around. Virgin obviously".

CLEARLY you've never had sex with experienced girls. Who the hell want's to have sex with a virgin prude?

"But you get to experience and grow together".

You can do that with any other girl too. Also, I've dated both. The virgin girl did get "better" but overall she was still terrible and there's a limit to how enjoyable she can get in bed.

If anything, there's TONS of people who REGRET waiting until marriage because their partner just flat out sucks / isn't compatible at all yet they still got married.

Dude, its definitely a "thing" for guys wanting to fvck virgins. Maybe societal conditioning, but it's decently common to meet guys that are really turned on by the idea of having sex with a virgin.

The rest of your post I agree with.

Sex before marriage is difficult to pull off because most marriages happen in a church or other public location. Sex right before hand can easily be interrupted by someone walking in on you.

hard to pull off wrote:

Sex before marriage is difficult to pull off because most marriages happen in a church or other public location. Sex right before hand can easily be interrupted by someone walking in on you.

You can work around that issue.

Thanks for the serious reply. Yeah, I know all about bonobos and how much better their societies are than chimps. Bonobos, like humans, seem to use sex as a way to relieve stress and anxiety. Now, I'm not the type who can sleep with someone just because they are hot, but I can admit that being in love with more than one person is 100% possible. So in that regard I could see myself sleeping with multiple people that I was in love with.

There's just something about not wanting the people you're in love with to love anyone but you. Or maybe I should just speak for myself on that one. Maybe it has something to do with my dad cheating on my mom at a very young age, that ripping our family apart, and now I'm scared I'd do the same? Logically speaking an open relationship sounds better, but from an emotional aspect it sounds like a total train wreck.

Anyway, I already have the bonobo software installed. We all do I'm pretty sure. Maybe the real question is how do I delete the chimpanzee software? Just start living more like a bonobo? That doesn't sound too bad!

If you're open about it, then you're not cheating and ripping anything apart. That's one of the nice things about open relationship, you're up front with each other.

What you said actually slightly worries me, in that I think it's hard to have two relationships of deep, romantic love and companionship in your life. That's usually a recipe to get hurt. The options that I know of that work for most people are:

A) one committed relationship with someone you're deeply in love (could eventually even call her GF/wife) and then some number of purely sexual FWB's on the side depending on sexual needs.

B) 2-3 more moderate relationships, probably not ones you say love or realize outright you wouldn't be full time compatible with, but nonetheless have characteristics or traits that make them fun to spend time with on the side and who you share some level of emotional connection with, and then 1+ FWBs on the side for sexual needs depending on your person

C) If you're just a mad player, don't care about any emotional connection, and just like having sexual variety then obviously a roster of pure FWBs is a different model. Most people don't outright admit to wanting this lifestyle though.

Two or more deep, committed, relationships is a recipe for disaster and heartache in my opinion. A & B are going to be in your life. You'll love and care for them both deeply, you usually share those kinds of people with those you know well. It will be difficult not to tell A about the cool things you did with B yesterday or vice versa. They are going to forever be unsure and unclear about "what your relationship" is and how important they are to you.

With one committed relationship you can be honest with her and say "you are the only women I am interested in romantically and emotionally". You can't if you have multiple serious relationships.

The other thing you'll find, that you already somewhat know if you've dated and interacted with women in the dating phase is that women are pretty good at keeping in the dark about their other dating prospects. Like you should do with her, she will probably not give you much evidence that she is sleeping with another guy. Not the same thing as not doing it, but out of sight out of mind is a lot nicer "than hey babe, gonna over to John's place for a good dicking tomorrow night just FYI".

Remember that sex and emotional attachment are not the same. They can exist independent of each other. Guys can be deeply in love with a woman and have sex with other women on the side without having any attachment to these women at an emotional level. So can women.

An active herpes infection on a pregnant woman can cause the child to develop epilepsy, basically destroying the child's life. Additionally, since is lives on nervous tissue, it can cause severe pain and has been linked to a number of autoimmune disorders from epilepsy to MS. The link between HPV and cervical, anal, ovarian, certain strains of uterine cancer are well documented. In rare cases, men develop cancer of the penis, and there has been a noticeable increase in the incidence of oral cancer in men from HPV (oral cancer rates are rising dramatically in spite of the fact that tobacco use has been declining for years due to the popularity of oral sex). If you feel that cancer is no big deal, you have never experienced it first hand. I have known two women who have died from uterine or ovarian cancers, one in their mid 60s, the other in their late teens. It is a very painful way to die. There are also countless other women who are left sterile after having complete hysterectomies to remove cancers that they catch in the early stages.

My wife is a dentist and has worked on numerous patients with oral cancer. The surgeries typically leave them disfigured (lose part of their tongue or sections of their jaw). The chemo and radiation pretty much destroy their salivary glands so they no longer want to eat because swallowing is painful so they typically waste away to skeletons (which lets face it, a lot of runners are already emaciated) and they often times will have all of their teeth pulled and given dentures (which are fairly useless for eating) due to the fact that their bones that are in the radiation field are incapable of healing if teeth need to be pulled after the procedure. Again, a fairly painful way to die, just look up pictures of Patrick Swayze and Michael Douglas later in life.

The oral history of man and woman together for marriage predates the Babylonians who supposedly made up monogamy (response to blackmonster whatever).

There are many great reasons to treat marriage with respect. One, it's the basis of a strong society, a good family unit with two caring parents. Two, there are good spiritual reasons to treat our bodies with respect and not just as soul-less animals. Three, even if you don't believe in the spiritual, treating another person with respect to whom you commit your life makes one's marriage better.

Saying that we have a high divorce rate and therefore monogamy doesn't work fails on many fronts. Not waiting before marriage is actually causally related to a marriage having less chance of working.

Being faithful in marriage and being committed is hard, no doubt about it. But it's not hard just because we are supposedly biologically disposed against it, it's hard because we are all imperfect, and committing ourselves to another imperfect person is in imperfect endeavor. But should we all shy against what is difficult?

As runners we all know that hard work produces results, and we have joy in the effort, the process, and the result. It's the same with marriage, it's the same with controlling one's sex drive. It's a basic rule of life.

joedirt wrote:

Michael Douglas later in life.

He looks fine. He might not even be later in life if he lives as long as his Dad.

It’s all about the backdoor. Trust me on this.

This is a much more meaningful, thoughtful post than some of the others.

I will agree with you that two caring parents, one male and one female, is from everything I've seen and read the best way to raise children. It raises the most well adjusted kids with the least psychological problems and most successful long term outcomes.

Where I would differ is marriage. Whether you have both signed paperwork and had a ceremony in no way impacts the development of the child. What matters is: what attitudes does the man show to the child, the woman to the child, and what interactions do the man and woman model in front of the child in how they treat each other. Having your name in a legal roster does not change these interactions. Nor, in truth, does non-monagomy...unless of course you're bringing all kinds of women to the house....which is not good for a kid, but you shouldn't be doing that anyway.

I believe strongly in a committed relationship, i.e. one in which the two partners share a deep romantic and emotional bond for raising kids. It does not seem to preclude sex with other individuals on a FWBs basis on the side for sexual satisfaction, and certainly does not require marriage.

Now we get into the respect word. Your statement to me, implies that you feel it is in some manner disrespectful for a man and a woman to consensually agree to allow the other to sleep with other people. To me, it's the opposite. That seems to show deep respect and trust.

If you feel that is disrespectful, I would ask you why you feel that way? My guess is that the answer you come up with will not be based on anything hard, but rather some feeling. Perhaps a moral imperative, perhaps a "feeling", perhaps a sense of wrongness, etc. Any of things suggest something you have been trained to believe. It may or may not be true. Challenge those beliefs, and see if they hold up.

There is an association here, but I don't think there is evidence to show it's causal by any means. It could just be that those that wait are those that are the most committed to marriage as a lasting endevour. It's the mindset, and not the waiting, that has everything to do it. I'm not contending that's the case, but it's one possibility. Without some solid multivariate analysis there is no way to just know the answer.

I would argue the trends don't show a casual link. In more recent studies, they have found that women with 10+ partners prior to marriage have the highest divorce rates. Probably not suprising, as it seems reasonable that a women that sleeps with many has: a high sex drive, likes variety, is used to those, probably not big on heavy commitment, etc. Not suprising she would bail when things get rocky.

Oddly though, it's women who had two partners prior to marriage that had the next highest divorce rates.

Women with 3-9 partners were much closer to those with zero or one partner prior to marriage than to the other cohorts.

This is a good question. My question then is, does it produce results? In a small percentage of cases the answer is a clear yes.

In most the answer is: we never find out.

In the majority of the remaining minority, I think the answer is not really. I'm sure you get some satisfaction from being a "good person" and "fighting the good fight" and such, but if you're in a fairly typical marriage with sub 1x/wk starfish sex, lots of nagging from the woman, relatively high incidence of drama, and many "rules" for what you can and can't do...I would ask...are you really happy?

I'll use parents as an example. Except in rare cases, the majority of people love their parents quite deeply. On a regular basis, we have all heard about situations with parents where we know the relationship is a strain for either the child, parents, or both. The classic overbearing, dominant father perhaps comes to mind. The kid may love his father deeply, but at the same time his father is a source of frustration and unhappiness; and he will receive recommendations from his friends that perhaps he should cut this guy from his life. You love him, you can work hard to make your interactions with him better, but at some point it's just not going to happen. You then cut him out of your life, and while it saddens you to do so, as a person you become much happier with that drama sink and negative energy removed.

We readily do this with parents or friends, but are slow to do so with loves, especially married ones. I don't think it's noble to stick out a marriage where you are treated poorly, of if many things that do not make you happy are demanded of you. Making an effort to be a good husband with a positive attitude, who listens well and tries to support his wife is a wonderful thing. If you put in a good effort there, and drama, verbal assaults, withholdance of sex, and large numbers of rules and expectations are still received, it's time to bail in my opinion. Your putting "making the marriage work" ahead of your own happiness. That doesn't make sense to me.

Maybe it would if you had kids. But if you had kids with someone with those kind of problems, you either are terrible at screening women, or made a BIG mistake on choosing to have kids with someone that was already giving you drama and rules.

My main point of contestion though is just don't get married in the first place, it's not necessary to be legally married. You can be everything that entails without the risk of a legal marriage. If you absolutely must...get a pre nup. A strong one legally. And realistically, and I'll stand by it, don't commit to monogamy. The problem is people change over time. Significantly in some cases. Statistically, she is going to start shutting off sex, losing interest, giving more drama, etc. It's biological. Non monogamy drastically reduces the severity of most of these problems.

These things can happen. I will acknowledge this. At the same time, these are rare occurrences. We all know we can die driving, but we still do it. People know riding a motorcycle is massively more dangerous than riding a car and still do it. People know that smoking can give you horrible cancers and still do it. People know that hiking in the woods or going out in a thunderstorm can get you struck by lighting and still do it.

You SHOULD be aware of the risks and dangers. So in that bringing up these facts and statistics is an excellent thing to do. It allows anyone to make a more informed decision. The only realistic way to avoid herpes and HPV is complete abstinence until you are with a woman, and hope that she has also been abstinent. You might already have herpes anyways. If the risk of a bad complication of either of those two is worth having a nonexistent sex life prior to marriage, and a decent sex life of about 3 yrs in marriage with ever declining sexual quality...then go the abstinence route secure in your rationale choice.

My guess is that most people are willing to take the fairly low risk of developing significant complications of HPV/Herpes for the benefits of getting to have a robust, enjoyable sex life.