It is not complicated, there's just a wide variety of rhetoric, nearly all of it wrong. If someone has male body parts that give them male athletic characteristics, they don't belong in women's sports. That sports don't have an alternative way to accommodate them is not complexity, just an imperfection in sports. Forcing sports into an absurd pretense makes them far worse than merely imperfect.
Lost Female Medals wrote:
The other type, that Semenya, Niyonsaba, Wambui etc have
There is no evidence that Niyonsaba is intersex, and she certainly doesn't look like a man, with short stature, broad hips and legs, and narrow shoulders and upper body. Sure, she's stockier than most female 800 runners, big deal. If you saw her on the street, no way would you say "that's a man."
Wambui wouldn't look out of place on a women's volleyball team. You're playing fast and loose with your imagination by lumping them in with Semenya, and handing ammunition to those who claim she's being unfairly persecuted, discrediting the cause of fairness in sport. Unless the IAAF makes some sort of announcement about Francine and Margaret, stick to the known facts and leave them out of it.
anothercommenter wrote:
get in quantifiable categories wrote:
Exactly, I don't know where you draw the line, and the IAAF seems to be unable to enforce or define what a male or female is when it comes to competition. Why not introduce definitely quantifiable catergories such as testosterone classes, height or weight classes, leg length classes etc? This would probably make track and field more interesting to follow.
Because nobody knows what classes to introduce, and they are likely to be immediately challenged if IAAF doesn't have some evidence backing up the classes... which, really, is exactly what has happened and where we are now.
Height or weight classes would be pretty easy to introduce and measure. Testosterone classes could be a little more completed; I guess the main thing would be determine how frequently do testosterone levels need to be measured.
intenserunner wrote:
get in quantifiable categories wrote:
Exactly, I don't know where you draw the line, and the IAAF seems to be unable to enforce or define what a male or female is when it comes to competition. Why not introduce definitely quantifiable catergories such as testosterone classes, height or weight classes, leg length classes etc? This would probably make track and field more interesting to follow.
I think the problem is that there is already too many events at track meets as it is with race walking, hurdles, steeple chase, etc. It works for something like boxing because that is all they do is box and the sport is popular enough, but if you create too many competitive classes in track, pretty soon you'll have more competitors than spectators.
Good point but should not track and field meets be broken up into specialist meets instead? One of the problems with the sport is that there are too many very different events going on at the same time and many of them are effectively different sports. Some events such as the throws do not seem to get the attention they deserve and they could be helped by just having a throws meet. So you could have meets of just distances, just sprints, just middle distances, just throws, just pole vault, just jumps. Each event in track and field would be able to showcase itself with such a format and they could in themselves gain more attention and following with this format. I know this already exists somewhat but it could be more systematic.
Yes Niyonsaba is not a certainty in regards to intersex status. Clearly Caster and Wambui are, as is the Botswanan who now plays in their soccer team. There apparently is as many as a dozen or so high testosterone athletes.
Advocatus Diaboli wrote:
What advantage? Seven women have better PRs. Three of those seven are over a second better that the alleged ADVANTAGED one. 26 women are closer to Semenyas time than Semenya is to the WR. Prove advantage.
Have you not ever watched Caster race? Caster coasts and then puts in enough at the end to win. This is all part of the scam being perpetrated. If Caster was actually so proud of being a “fast woman” you’d see much different races and much faster times. The only time Caster appears to want to identify as female is when it makes money. Laughing all the way to the bank.
Watch a race ever? wrote:
Advocatus Diaboli wrote:
What advantage? Seven women have better PRs. Three of those seven are over a second better that the alleged ADVANTAGED one. 26 women are closer to Semenyas time than Semenya is to the WR. Prove advantage.
Have you not ever watched Caster race? Caster coasts and then puts in enough at the end to win. This is all part of the scam being perpetrated. If Caster was actually so proud of being a “fast woman” you’d see much different races and much faster times. The only time Caster appears to want to identify as female is when it makes money. Laughing all the way to the bank.
Typical. The proof that she has an abnormal advantage is... that she only just beats them. Oh the cunning!
So if she wins the 800m by a straight its proof she is intersex and if she doesn't its also proof. Got it. Thanks!!
Lost Female Medals wrote:
intenserunner wrote:
Since it is so difficult to prove who is "female" and who isn't, and since we are now allowing men to compete as "female" under certain conditions, why do we not just get rid of the "female" category and make a new "low-testosterone" category in its place? Or simply redefine the term "female" in the rule books "For the sake of competition, 'female' will be defined as...[insert strict scientific definition here]". Then these court cases will be more clear cut. It seems the only reason that the rules can be challenged is due to them being poorly defined.
It’s undoubtedly 5 ARD syndrome. There are two kinds, both involve chromosomally male children being born with malformed or missing property male sexual characteristics due to an inability of the foetus to utilise testosterone in the womb for development. Often this leads to the children being brought up as female, sometimes after surgery to help them along.
The problem becomes more apparent at puberty. One type of 5 ARD, the type Dutee Chand likely has, doesn’t allow uptake of testosterone at this time either and the person remains outwardly female looking despite chromosonally being male.
The other type, that Semenya, Niyonsaba, Wambui etc have allows uptake of T to differing levels, often normal levels and causes male secondary sexual characteristics to develop.
The confusion is being caused by no one being irritated to talk about what disorder Semenya actually has, and sacrificing women’s athletics so as to avoid offending him.
Talking about ‘intersex’ is a misnomer in most cases. Semenya is male because he has enough testosterone uptake to have physically developed as a male.
Just why is Semenya so keen to race as a female? Surely it should be a cause for sone celebration that he has so successfully developed male secondary sexual characteristics and seems so keen now to take on the traditional male role in life away from athletics. The answer must be that it is very rewarding for him to race against female athletes and dominate them, without this, he is nothing. He could race against the men, but chooses to perpetuate this nonsense so he can feel like a star.
I agree with the idea that the elite woman take it into their own hands and do something about it. Most of them aren’t allowed to air their views in public for fear of losing sponsors or state athletics contracts. Standing for a timed 15 seconds in the start line after the men start their race then having their own female race should do the trick. Even if a few athletes only do it, the reverberations around the world will take the focus off Semenya and back to the real victims in this. How many women now have lost medals to men who have 5 ARD syndrome?
Just pause for a moment to explain how you are going to PROVE you have identified these 'women'?
Who is the arbiter? wrote:
Lost Female Medals wrote:
It’s undoubtedly 5 ARD syndrome. There are two kinds, both involve chromosomally male children being born with malformed or missing property male sexual characteristics due to an inability of the foetus to utilise testosterone in the womb for development. Often this leads to the children being brought up as female, sometimes after surgery to help them along.
The problem becomes more apparent at puberty. One type of 5 ARD, the type Dutee Chand likely has, doesn’t allow uptake of testosterone at this time either and the person remains outwardly female looking despite chromosonally being male.
The other type, that Semenya, Niyonsaba, Wambui etc have allows uptake of T to differing levels, often normal levels and causes male secondary sexual characteristics to develop.
The confusion is being caused by no one being irritated to talk about what disorder Semenya actually has, and sacrificing women’s athletics so as to avoid offending him.
Talking about ‘intersex’ is a misnomer in most cases. Semenya is male because he has enough testosterone uptake to have physically developed as a male.
Just why is Semenya so keen to race as a female? Surely it should be a cause for sone celebration that he has so successfully developed male secondary sexual characteristics and seems so keen now to take on the traditional male role in life away from athletics. The answer must be that it is very rewarding for him to race against female athletes and dominate them, without this, he is nothing. He could race against the men, but chooses to perpetuate this nonsense so he can feel like a star.
I agree with the idea that the elite woman take it into their own hands and do something about it. Most of them aren’t allowed to air their views in public for fear of losing sponsors or state athletics contracts. Standing for a timed 15 seconds in the start line after the men start their race then having their own female race should do the trick. Even if a few athletes only do it, the reverberations around the world will take the focus off Semenya and back to the real victims in this. How many women now have lost medals to men who have 5 ARD syndrome?
Just pause for a moment to explain how you are going to PROVE you have identified these 'women'?
Apart from this male trio’s obvious male secondary sexual characteristics? Let’s make them price their eligibility by making their T levels public.