Is Daniel Komen's 3000m world record insurmountable?

El G only raced the 3k internationally once I believe. He missed the WR but ran the 2nd fastest time of all time on his first attempt. Pacing was not ideal and definitely not as good as Komen's as he was being slowed by the pacemaker who got in the way, forcing El G to run wide around the bend to pass him. There is no athlete that has ever lived that ran his absolute best possible time the first ever time he attempted the distance and never improved thereafter. 7:23 in his first try is outrageous.

He ran 12:50 in his first attempt at the distance on the track as an international athlete, it was a more tactical type race against Shaheen in very hot conditions, which he won. He beat prime Bekele in the 5k. His agent talked about him perhaps having an attempt on the world record at some point. History shows that El G didn't joke around when talking about World Record attempts, 12:40 would not be an unreasonable time to expect. However El G decided to retire after doing the 15/5k Olympic double.

I have absolutely no doubt that El G was capable of 7:20 or faster. Cram even says so in the commentary of his attempt.

Even though Bekele never had a really quick 1,500m...you could argue he definitely could have gone faster. I think Canova said he thought capable of sub 3:30 if he gave it a good attempt.

Anyway, I always see that Komen had this speed that Bekele didn't have. What is the fastest lap Komen recorded vs Bekele? (Actually really curious of this I know Bekele has done 52s but never seen Komen run a lap that fast)

ex-runner wrote:

... He ran 12:50 in his first attempt at the distance on the track as an international athlete, it was a more tactical type race against Shaheen in very hot conditions, which he won.

....

No. Cherono (Shaheen) smoked him easily.

El G was toast at the end of that run. He may have been able to run faster later on, but I doubt he had 12:40 in him.

His 3000m was a WR attempt. If he felt he had a shot at running 3 seconds faster I think he'd have taken it. Promoters paid a whole bunch of money for a WR back then. And he didn't have an attempt in the 5000m at all.

He beat a prime Bekele, twice, but that doesn't mean he had the ability to run 12:37.

I've looked at the data from over half dozen 3,000 WR attempts and by the 3rd lap, all of them were off the pace. The specific problem Bekele ran into was the feeling the sting of running 58-second laps 2 or 3 laps into the race and realizing he wasn't even halfway. The 3,000 favors milers and only sub-3:30 miler can run successive 58 laps without feeling like you are running all-out. There is absolutely no way the 5000 and 10000 WR holder that much food on the table. No disrespect Bekele, but if he was capable of breaking the 3,000 WR he would have.

What Komen did was set out on an insane pace and threw caution to the wind...good luck getting someone else to do that.

Did you even look at the data I posted of Bekele's 2 fastest 3,000m? Here, I'll post again for you with Komen's next to his. Bekele didn't even get below 60 in either attempt until 4 laps into the race so you saying his problem of feeling the sting of 58s early in the race is just wrong. His first 2 km splits in both attempts are the same speed as his 5,000m WR. You honestly think that these were valid attempts at the WR when they went out that slow? Again, I don't know if Bekele could have broken the WR but I definitely think these really weren't "real" attempts to break Komen's record.

Bekele 7:26.69 Bekele 7:25.79 Komen WR 7:20.69

200m : 28.25 28.1 29.13

600m : 60.06 60.12 57.5

1,000m : 61.29 61.23 59.26

1,400m : 61.92 62.2 57.66

1,800m : 60.95 59.09 59.91

2,200m : 58.84 59.05 58.37

2,600m : 58.35 60.07 59.75

3,000m: 57.08 56.04 59.09

1st km = 2:29.57 2:29.45 2:25.89

2nd km = 2:33.15 2:30.43 2:27.29

3rd km = 2:23.99 2:25.92 2:27.49

kim mc dona(his agent)ld know the truth as well komen ,iaaf must delete this WR from ther pc .

People seem to be talking about two different things.

It is probably true that nobody can touch this record- or Kenny's or El G's records- in the era of ABP and more sensitive EPO testing.

But don't tell me the talent pool can't run fast. Mo was never going to break 12:40, but he was definitly capable of at least 12:45, and plenty of others can crack 12:50. The last time the elites really went for it was Paris 2012 (?) when a slew of guys ran sub- 12:50. Current guys should be no different.

In the Mo Farah era of distance, we really just don't see fast racing anymore. Nobody really seems to want to go for for it in the 5 or 10k, much less at 3000 which isnt even a championship event. It's a shame, because the race is really unique in its fitness requirements- almost halfway aerobic and halfway anaerobic- making it kind of like a reallllly long mid-d race or a distance sprint.

The NOP-tactical mentality has taken over, and distance running suffers for it. It may be great for the success of individual athletes, but what differentiates Mo from Geb, Kenny, and El G is that you really saw those guys pushing the limits of the sport forward, as well as human ability. Nobody likes sit and kick. It's boring.

The drug argument is valid, but it doesnt excuse the fact that current distance runners (outside of the marathon) arent going for it AT ALL. Most fans recognize that 2018 is not 2001, and would be plenty excited by 12:45. But you still dont see that happening.

have you considered wrote:

...The drug argument is valid, but it doesnt excuse the fact that current distance runners (outside of the marathon) arent going for it AT ALL. Most fans recognize that 2018 is not 2001, and would be plenty excited by 12:45. But you still dont see that happening.

Are you talking about only the men?

It actually works with every physiology because the whites were and are also on it. They just forgot you have to work hard also.

You are 100% right - it's the Armstrong effect, the El G effect, the Bekele effect.

Irrespective of drugs these guys were still the best - I mean everyone they were basically competing against were taking just as much as they were - maybe not as effectively (in the case of Lance) or just weren't inherently as good.

When you combine physical tools + no mental barriers + some crazy mix of sh$t they had back in the good old days of doping then you have performances like 7.20.67 for 3000m

I blame Alberto Salazar , I have a feeling he stopped Mo from running / attempting world record

Geb had plenty of opportunities to break it and never got close.

El Guerrouj gave it everything and was primed for that and wasn't even close.

Bekele wouldn't have been able to run faster than El Guerrouj at that distance.

No way Mo is running 7:21.

The reason the record is 7:20 is Komen was on alot of sauce and he was perfectly designed to run slightly slower than 1500m pace for a few minutes extra.

Salvatore Stitchmo wrote:

You are 100% right - it's the Armstrong effect, the El G effect, the Bekele effect.

Irrespective of drugs these guys were still the best - I mean everyone they were basically competing against were taking just as much as they were - maybe not as effectively (in the case of Lance) or just weren't inherently as good.

We don't know that. For example Bekele might only have been faster than Haile because he responded even better to whatever sauce mix, or simply because by then the sauce mix was more optimized.

Or compare El G with Lagat: we have no idea which one of the two doped more (if anyone, lol), or used which mix, or could have run what time clean.

To me, that is somewhat disappointing, but old news.

I'd rather say:

Without anyone doping, these guys would most likely still be among the top.

moe is in the discussion, 328 plus 10 oly gold says you have it all.

if moe on his monico days of 328 had run a paced 1500 pace of 337 he could have done it.

as could el g, but he was only specializing for a very short time outside 1500, to go for the double.

realize that everything elg did was aimed at running 53 to 55 second quarters, no slower no faster.

and realize that lapping at 60 seconds isn't in the same world as 1500 m pace, nor is 49 to 51 seconds pace which

is the bread and butter work of the 800 specialist at the very top of course.

the point being, specialists don't express their best potential time when they go outside their wheelhouse.

and this is why sebastian coe never ran the 326 1500, we was between places capable of high octane 400m but was gassed at el g WR pace.

Bekele ran the last 5 k of his 10k world record completely solo too.

But, 7:20 Is like running two - 3:55 !

longjack wrote:

Run_Stat wrote:

If Bekele gave the 3000m WR a good go in his 2004/05 seasons he probably could have broken it.

In his 2007 season he ran in the 7:25/26 range on multiple occasions and I believe he could have run 7:21 if he was set up for a WR attempt really well. Believing Bekele was actually even faster in the 04/05 seasons maybe 7:18 was possible.

I find Komens WR to be worth a 7:18 if he had better pacing during it that too.

i got komen at 7:16 rested with proper pacing.

rested, with proper pacing, and with a solid breakfast...i have komen at 7:14. easily.

No, but to break it--as with all current records in "real" events (Olympic events, plus 2000 meters, 3000 meters, mile, two mile, etc.)--with the possible exception of the 1000 meters--doping is required, and it is much harder for distance runners to dope with impunity now than during the height of the EPO era.

jaypenn2012 wrote:

Bekele ran the last 5 k of his 10k world record completely solo too.

But, 7:20 Is like running two - 3:55 !

720 is 2 x 340. 1500m

the record could be at 2 x 337.

as for bekeles 10k record, it is by far the weakest, i should be 26 flat at least, that is if there was pacing and bekele ran near his best. ask cannova, hermans, or bekele, etc.

it is hard to peg bekele at shorter distances.

the guy was trained to run 60 to 61 seconds a lap, and finish in 53.

workouts revolve around that.

if he wanted to take a stab at a good 1500 and 3k, then the work would be more like 58 second laps, and maybe get the 400m down to 48 high, no faster.

i would have to say, with focus on the mile, then bekele could have done anything komen did.