Better quality video than other 800m finals video. Dave Wottle gives us one of the most brilliant Olympic performances ever, or at least the most under rated...
People tend to underrate Ovett's 800m gold in Moscow IMO. By some measures, you could make a case that it was second only to Rudisha's 2012 performance.
1/As far as I know, at the time it was the largest winning margin of any 800m Olympic final in history (and yet off such a slow first lap where all eight were bunched together). Since then I think only 2 or 3 finals have had a greater winning margin.
2/With 500m to go, Ovett was either last or next to last, and even at the bell he was in 5th or 6th place.
3/Although on the home straight of the first lap Ovett famously tried to mucle his way out of the pack, he was still completely boxed in at the bell in 5th or 6th place. I'm not sure if any other great 800m runner in history in that position would still have won, and not by half a second. Gaps did open up quickly from around 300m to go, but Ovett still had to judge his pace and pick his time.
4/Despite 2 and 3, Ovett ran a 50.5 final lap, still the fastest ever in an Olympic 800m final (maybe even any major 800m final). He surely also could have ran faster. After the bell he was still boxed and got 'knocked about by Wagenknecht' in commentator Coleman's words. In fact it appeared to severely affect his stride. Being boxed in, he couldn't really start accelerating until around the 300m mark. He was obviously aware that Coe was beaten and he was way in front and relaxed and slowed down well before the finishing line. It certainly seems possible to me he could have ran a sub 50 second last lap if he had to and hadn't been boxed in/knocked about.
5/He beat a guy who ran 1:42 the year before, and would run 1:41 the next year. It shouldn't even have been a contest. Yes, of course Coe choked, but at the end of the day this was a race on the biggest stage, and Ovett won easily. The likes of Said88 have claimed it was a 'weak final', but how many other 800m gold medalists had to beat a 1:41/1:42 guy (or a guy who had already ran almost a second faster than any other human being in history)?
6/Further to point 5, it wasn't a weak final at all, and in particular it was a lot stronger than it might look on paper because it was held in Moscow, at the height of the cold war, and Ovett (and Coe) were racing against 3 Eastern Bloc athletes. Wagennecht and Busse had both beaten Olaf Beyer in the East German trials (Wagennecht also beat Beyer in the 78 East German championships). PBs of the East Germans are misleading anyway because they rarely ran outside of international competition and everything was geared to winning those international competitions. Guimarães, the Brazilian who finished fourth, would go on to run a 1:43.63. Another way of looking at the quality of the final is that both Beyer and Wuycke failed to qualify from the semi-finals - both of them 1:43 men.
I believe Ovett was capable of running sub 1:43 that day. If the pace had been 50/51 I'm not sure it would have been a much different outcome except the times would be all much faster, likely faster than the 76 final. IOvett might even have threatened Coe's WR. A faster final would also have been even worse for Coe because he would still have played safe at the back and would have left it too late perhaps even to medal. Coe lost not because he allowed himself to be boxed in, he didn't, he went out of his way to avoid that by staying off the pace until it was ridiculously too late. A faster final would have resulted in something like this:
Gold - Ovett 1:42.65
Silver - Kirov 1:43.30
Bronze - Coe 1:43:40
4th - Guimarães 1:43.60
5th - Busse 1:43.90
I think Ovett struggled for motivation after this and was never quite the same athlete.
Are you serious? These statements directly contradict each other, and you obviously know nothing about the Olympic 800m history. If you did you would know there has been MULTIPLE times people have won by almost two seconds. Yes Ovett had a great run, but do your homework before you come on here and vomit what you know only because it's the only thing you know.
Are you serious? These statements directly contradict each other, and you obviously know nothing about the Olympic 800m history. If you did you would know there has been MULTIPLE times people have won by almost two seconds. Yes Ovett had a great run, but do your homework before you come on here and vomit what you know only because it's the only thing you know.
Why has nobody corrected this clown? Since 1948 there have been 19 Olympic 800m finals. Ovett's winning margin is joint 3rd (with Snell 64), behind only Rudisha 2016 and Cruz in 84.
Nobody has ever won an Olympic 800m final by nearly 2 seconds.
Are you serious? These statements directly contradict each other, and you obviously know nothing about the Olympic 800m history. If you did you would know there has been MULTIPLE times people have won by almost two seconds. Yes Ovett had a great run, but do your homework before you come on here and vomit what you know only because it's the only thing you know.
Why has nobody corrected this clown? Since 1948 there have been 19 Olympic 800m finals. Ovett's winning margin is joint 3rd (with Snell 64), behind only Rudisha 2016 and Cruz in 84.
Nobody has ever won an Olympic 800m final by nearly 2 seconds.
behind
Rudisha 2016
Rudisha 2012
Cruz 1984
Snell 1964
equal
Ereng 1988
have you ever given some correct stats in this forum?
Are you serious? These statements directly contradict each other, and you obviously know nothing about the Olympic 800m history. If you did you would know there has been MULTIPLE times people have won by almost two seconds. Yes Ovett had a great run, but do your homework before you come on here and vomit what you know only because it's the only thing you know.
Why has nobody corrected this clown? Since 1948 there have been 19 Olympic 800m finals. Ovett's winning margin is joint 3rd (with Snell 64), behind only Rudisha 2016 and Cruz in 84.
Nobody has ever won an Olympic 800m final by nearly 2 seconds.
Wow you really are clueless. How about the 1900 Olympics when Alfred Tysoe won by 1.8 seconds. Don't forget the great Mel Sheppard of the 1908 Olympics who won by 1.4 seconds and set the world record in winning gold. Let me guess. You're going to dismiss these races because it was too long ago. Give me a break. I find it odd you would only count Olympics going back to 1948.
It is hilarious that Wottle's victory is still celebrated, given the devastating impact on American middle distance running. One idiot after another grew up in that era and later became a coach. They applied the moronic method of citing and cherishing an outlier example. Stay at the back, son. What could possibly go wrong? If you lead, you lose.
I enjoyed that race as a kid. Fortunately I wised up within a half dozen years, once I began studying results from all sports. You cannot cede ground at highest level. Wottle ran an atrocious race and got extraordinarily lucky. That is part of normal distribution. It needed to be understood as such and the tactics condemned.
Regarding Moscow 1980 I expected Coe to win both races and was shocked at the 800. I still have that NBC tape somewhere, from the abbreviated highlight show that NBC ran during severely limited coverage of those boycotted Games. Bryant Gumbel did a voice over after the fact. I had the clip on my YouTube channel for years until the IOC zapped the channel via copyright complaints.
Ovett did a masterful job of anticipating the East German tactics, unlike Coe. Ovett never would have been prepared to deliver that early shove if he hadn't understood the likely situational influence. That in itself places the race far above 1972. The East Germans winged themselves, not unlike many attempts later used by Kenyans and Ethiopians against Mo Farah. Ovett again was terrific to sense he had to barge through, just as the BBC commentator was insisting he'd have to circle.
But by far the key moment in the race was mid backstretch when the tall East German didn't understand where Ovett was. If so, he could have surrendered himself by collapsing inside, totally eliminating Ovett. Instead it played out like so many middle distance scrums. The opportunity was there for Ovett but only briefly. He had to accelerate instantly and get ahead of the tall East German while moving slightly outside. In seizing that moment Ovett cleared the closers and got the jump on them.
There is a Katelyn Tuohy/Amina Maatoug here right now. I realize it's stupid to compare Maatoug to Ovett other than I've seen her in that backstretch box several times. She isn't prepared to accelerate and clear the runner alongside to her right. It's all the difference toward how the remainder unfolds. If you don't seize that window then the closers steadily move beyond while you're still stuck on the rail. Maatoug is just one example of countless middle distance runners who aren't as aggressive as they should be when that situation presents.
Obviously Coe stupidly ran a tentative race, assuming his fast times resume would negate any possibility of strategery used against him. I remember after the 1500 win he still wasn't satisfied at all, saying, "I came here to win the 800."
It is hilarious that Wottle's victory is still celebrated, given the devastating impact on American middle distance running. One idiot after another grew up in that era and later became a coach. They applied the moronic method of citing and cherishing an outlier example. Stay at the back, son. What could possibly go wrong? If you lead, you lose.
I enjoyed that race as a kid. Fortunately I wised up within a half dozen years, once I began studying results from all sports. You cannot cede ground at highest level. Wottle ran an atrocious race and got extraordinarily lucky. That is part of normal distribution. It needed to be understood as such and the tactics condemned.
Regarding Moscow 1980 I expected Coe to win both races and was shocked at the 800. I still have that NBC tape somewhere, from the abbreviated highlight show that NBC ran during severely limited coverage of those boycotted Games. Bryant Gumbel did a voice over after the fact. I had the clip on my YouTube channel for years until the IOC zapped the channel via copyright complaints.
Ovett did a masterful job of anticipating the East German tactics, unlike Coe. Ovett never would have been prepared to deliver that early shove if he hadn't understood the likely situational influence. That in itself places the race far above 1972. The East Germans winged themselves, not unlike many attempts later used by Kenyans and Ethiopians against Mo Farah. Ovett again was terrific to sense he had to barge through, just as the BBC commentator was insisting he'd have to circle.
But by far the key moment in the race was mid backstretch when the tall East German didn't understand where Ovett was. If so, he could have surrendered himself by collapsing inside, totally eliminating Ovett. Instead it played out like so many middle distance scrums. The opportunity was there for Ovett but only briefly. He had to accelerate instantly and get ahead of the tall East German while moving slightly outside. In seizing that moment Ovett cleared the closers and got the jump on them.
There is a Katelyn Tuohy/Amina Maatoug here right now. I realize it's stupid to compare Maatoug to Ovett other than I've seen her in that backstretch box several times. She isn't prepared to accelerate and clear the runner alongside to her right. It's all the difference toward how the remainder unfolds. If you don't seize that window then the closers steadily move beyond while you're still stuck on the rail. Maatoug is just one example of countless middle distance runners who aren't as aggressive as they should be when that situation presents.
Obviously Coe stupidly ran a tentative race, assuming his fast times resume would negate any possibility of strategery used against him. I remember after the 1500 win he still wasn't satisfied at all, saying, "I came here to win the 800."
I agree with much of your D Wottle logic.
From 1936 through 1956, U.S. men were 800m Olympic gold medalists, all (45 to 47) 400m or 440y men. All 800m Olympic gold medalists from 1936 to 1956 were 400/800 men.
D Wottle saw himself as a 1500/1 mile guy.
Did D Wottle have a good feel for pace that day? Did D Wottle know Mike Boit split 400m in 52.3 or 52.4?
What if Mike Boit had not slowed? Did D Wottle have a 51.xx last lap in him if necessary?
It is hilarious that Wottle's victory is still celebrated, given the devastating impact on American middle distance running. One idiot after another grew up in that era and later became a coach. They applied the moronic method of citing and cherishing an outlier example. Stay at the back, son. What could possibly go wrong? If you lead, you lose.
I enjoyed that race as a kid. Fortunately I wised up within a half dozen years, once I began studying results from all sports. You cannot cede ground at highest level. Wottle ran an atrocious race and got extraordinarily lucky. That is part of normal distribution. It needed to be understood as such and the tactics condemned.
Regarding Moscow 1980 I expected Coe to win both races and was shocked at the 800. I still have that NBC tape somewhere, from the abbreviated highlight show that NBC ran during severely limited coverage of those boycotted Games. Bryant Gumbel did a voice over after the fact. I had the clip on my YouTube channel for years until the IOC zapped the channel via copyright complaints.
Ovett did a masterful job of anticipating the East German tactics, unlike Coe. Ovett never would have been prepared to deliver that early shove if he hadn't understood the likely situational influence. That in itself places the race far above 1972. The East Germans winged themselves, not unlike many attempts later used by Kenyans and Ethiopians against Mo Farah. Ovett again was terrific to sense he had to barge through, just as the BBC commentator was insisting he'd have to circle.
But by far the key moment in the race was mid backstretch when the tall East German didn't understand where Ovett was. If so, he could have surrendered himself by collapsing inside, totally eliminating Ovett. Instead it played out like so many middle distance scrums. The opportunity was there for Ovett but only briefly. He had to accelerate instantly and get ahead of the tall East German while moving slightly outside. In seizing that moment Ovett cleared the closers and got the jump on them.
There is a Katelyn Tuohy/Amina Maatoug here right now. I realize it's stupid to compare Maatoug to Ovett other than I've seen her in that backstretch box several times. She isn't prepared to accelerate and clear the runner alongside to her right. It's all the difference toward how the remainder unfolds. If you don't seize that window then the closers steadily move beyond while you're still stuck on the rail. Maatoug is just one example of countless middle distance runners who aren't as aggressive as they should be when that situation presents.
Obviously Coe stupidly ran a tentative race, assuming his fast times resume would negate any possibility of strategery used against him. I remember after the 1500 win he still wasn't satisfied at all, saying, "I came here to win the 800."
It is appropriate that you use rugby language, like "scrums", for the Ovett final. It was a maul. That isn't a great race. It's another sport.
It is hilarious that Wottle's victory is still celebrated, given the devastating impact on American middle distance running. One idiot after another grew up in that era and later became a coach. They applied the moronic method of citing and cherishing an outlier example. Stay at the back, son. What could possibly go wrong? If you lead, you lose.
I enjoyed that race as a kid. Fortunately I wised up within a half dozen years, once I began studying results from all sports. You cannot cede ground at highest level. Wottle ran an atrocious race and got extraordinarily lucky. That is part of normal distribution. It needed to be understood as such and the tactics condemned.
Regarding Moscow 1980 I expected Coe to win both races and was shocked at the 800. I still have that NBC tape somewhere, from the abbreviated highlight show that NBC ran during severely limited coverage of those boycotted Games. Bryant Gumbel did a voice over after the fact. I had the clip on my YouTube channel for years until the IOC zapped the channel via copyright complaints.
Ovett did a masterful job of anticipating the East German tactics, unlike Coe. Ovett never would have been prepared to deliver that early shove if he hadn't understood the likely situational influence. That in itself places the race far above 1972. The East Germans winged themselves, not unlike many attempts later used by Kenyans and Ethiopians against Mo Farah. Ovett again was terrific to sense he had to barge through, just as the BBC commentator was insisting he'd have to circle.
But by far the key moment in the race was mid backstretch when the tall East German didn't understand where Ovett was. If so, he could have surrendered himself by collapsing inside, totally eliminating Ovett. Instead it played out like so many middle distance scrums. The opportunity was there for Ovett but only briefly. He had to accelerate instantly and get ahead of the tall East German while moving slightly outside. In seizing that moment Ovett cleared the closers and got the jump on them.
There is a Katelyn Tuohy/Amina Maatoug here right now. I realize it's stupid to compare Maatoug to Ovett other than I've seen her in that backstretch box several times. She isn't prepared to accelerate and clear the runner alongside to her right. It's all the difference toward how the remainder unfolds. If you don't seize that window then the closers steadily move beyond while you're still stuck on the rail. Maatoug is just one example of countless middle distance runners who aren't as aggressive as they should be when that situation presents.
Obviously Coe stupidly ran a tentative race, assuming his fast times resume would negate any possibility of strategery used against him. I remember after the 1500 win he still wasn't satisfied at all, saying, "I came here to win the 800."
I agree with much of your D Wottle logic.
From 1936 through 1956, U.S. men were 800m Olympic gold medalists, all (45 to 47) 400m or 440y men. All 800m Olympic gold medalists from 1936 to 1956 were 400/800 men.
D Wottle saw himself as a 1500/1 mile guy.
Did D Wottle have a good feel for pace that day? Did D Wottle know Mike Boit split 400m in 52.3 or 52.4?
What if Mike Boit had not slowed? Did D Wottle have a 51.xx last lap in him if necessary?
Wottle started slowly because he said he felt tired and the early pace was too fast. As it was, the field tired and he found more strength than they had.
I am absolutely uninterested in seeing runners barge their way past or through other runners. None of the great runners of the past that I saw would do that.
From 1936 through 1956, U.S. men were 800m Olympic gold medalists, all (45 to 47) 400m or 440y men. All 800m Olympic gold medalists from 1936 to 1956 were 400/800 men.
D Wottle saw himself as a 1500/1 mile guy.
Did D Wottle have a good feel for pace that day? Did D Wottle know Mike Boit split 400m in 52.3 or 52.4?
What if Mike Boit had not slowed? Did D Wottle have a 51.xx last lap in him if necessary?
Wottle started slowly because he said he felt tired and the early pace was too fast. As it was, the field tired and he found more strength than they had.
What did the leaders split? 25.xx/27.xx. That's not fast, relatively.
Wottle started slowly because he said he felt tired and the early pace was too fast. As it was, the field tired and he found more strength than they had.
What did the leaders split? . That's not fast, relatively.
It was the early pace - the first 200 - that Wottle said he felt was too fast - and that he felt tired. However, by the end of the first lap he had caught up with the field. The interesting thing is that Wottle apparently ran his race almost completely even - 26xsec splits for each 200.
I am absolutely uninterested in seeing runners barge their way past or through other runners. None of the great runners of the past that I saw would do that.
Pretty sure Snell would have done the same if two big juiced up East Germans were deliberately blocking him in.
I can't remember Ovett barging anybody in any other race. Well, apart form one time he gave John Walker a shove, but Walker didn't make any complaints.
I do remember reading that in his teens Ovett was knocked off the track in a big race and that he determined that he would handle himself in future whenever he was in a scrum.
I am absolutely uninterested in seeing runners barge their way past or through other runners. None of the great runners of the past that I saw would do that.
Pretty sure Snell would have done the same if two big juiced up East Germans were deliberately blocking him in.
There you are absolutely wrong. He was boxed in at Rome '60 and was only able to extricate himself when the field opened up in the final straight. At Tokyo he got boxed in again in the 800 and chose that time to drop back and go around the field (which also showed his confidence). In the 1500 he got similarly boxed in at the beginning of the final lap and gestured to the runner next to him that he wished to move out - John Whetton - who obligingly moved aside. But shoving and barging wasn't a notable part of racing in that era. The only exception I recall was Mohammed Gammoudi pushing past Ron Clarke in the final lap of the 10k at Tokyo '64. I don't care for it. It has no class.
I can't remember Ovett barging anybody in any other race. Well, apart form one time he gave John Walker a shove, but Walker didn't make any complaints.
I do remember reading that in his teens Ovett was knocked off the track in a big race and that he determined that he would handle himself in future whenever he was in a scrum.
I saw quite a bit of it at the last Olympics. I'm astonished there aren't disqualifications. There are runners who obstruct - either deliberately or carelessly - and others who barge through runners where there is no gap instead of passing around the outside.
It was the early pace - the first 200 - that Wottle said he felt was too fast - and that he felt tired. However, by the end of the first lap he had caught up with the field. The interesting thing is that Wottle apparently ran his race almost completely even - 26xsec splits for each 200.
Do you mean Wottle was last or next to last at 400m? Is that what you mean by caught up? Wottle won. He has his gold. Why are you spinning? You are praising Wottle for not being near the front at 400m mark. You are praising Wottle for splitting 400m close to 53 seconds. A poster said basically Wottle raced a high risk strategy and it was borderline foolish. I agree with poster. You are trying to tell me it was smart. Start your own Wottle raced a great race thread.
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