For what it's worth, For a 2:36:52 marathon (5:59 pace), Daniels sets (lactate) threshold pace at 5:41. That also happens to be the VDOT 15k pace equivalent of a 2:26:52 marathon.
For what it's worth, For a 2:36:52 marathon (5:59 pace), Daniels sets (lactate) threshold pace at 5:41. That also happens to be the VDOT 15k pace equivalent of a 2:26:52 marathon.
Well, I guess it is your anaerobic threshold.
that's backwards. they are precise terms with precise meaning that you use imprecisely.
Smoove wrote:
Seems like your trying to make a bigger point perhaps; I have no idea. If you've got it all figured out already, good for you.
*you’re
Yeah, I had some typos. But if you're going to take the position that there is universal agreement on terms relating to lactate threshold then you're just being disingenuous.
So enjoy being pedantic and trying to show everyone go bright you are by insisting on precision. Because it's pretty obvious that's your goal.
Given how bright you are, applying your very precise standards, it should have been pretty obvious "what threshold" I was referring to.
Hmmm, 15k pace - is that close to what I could run for half an hour, an hour, or two hours? Gee, if only there some commonly used tools to help establish a guideline for different training paces.
Enjoy your training. Good luck with your goals.
everybody here knows what people mean when they say threshold/tempo. the vast majority of runners think of it as "1hr race pace" and for people likely to be reading this specific thread, 15k pace is close enough, although any 2:30s marathoner should be able to do more like 17-18k in an hour.
so far most of this thread in the last week is not going to help out prospective 2:30 marathoners. Let's keep it to the point.
AnT/LT2 is NOT 4 mmol. That's a rule of thumb that's less accurate than 220-age for max hr.
Anyway, improving LT is a fine objective for training early in the cycle, but you don't need to run at LT to do it. You don't even need to know your LT pace. LT will improve from hitting a variety of paces in the general area. 10k pace is very useful. Also, fartleks where your "off" segments are at a steady aerobic pace. Long, hard uphill runs (on the treadmill probably). Even 5k pace has a place if you take long enough recoveries to keep it from being too anaerobic. Progressions.
Speaking of training, I'm 2 weeks into dedicated Boston training. Last week was 72 miles, this week was 65 (although I intended 72, life got in the way).
One long run and one workout last week. Workout was 5 x 1000 at 3:08 w/3:00 rest.
Two workouts this week, one combined with my long run. First was 4 x 1200 at roughly 5k pace (3:41 average) w/2:15-3:00 rest. Second was 1.5 up, 4 x 1600 w/1:00 passive rest (5:09, 5:13, 5:19, 5:19), 10.5 easy to finish it off.
4 more weeks of work at 5k pace before I leave it behind.
Smoove wrote:
4 x 1200 at roughly 5k pace (3:41 average) w/2:15-3:00 rest.
With all offense,
You say you're running roughly 5k pace for this workout, well 3:41 1200s is 15:20 5k pace. You're a low-16 5k guy, not much more. You are running your workouts way too hard, or you don't know what you're doing. Those 1200s are likely faster than your current 3k pace.
Something else I've noticed through reading a lot of your posts on this thread is the fact that you believe your tempo/threshold pace is around 5:15-5:20/mile. This is a major misconception that you need to address if you are really serious about improving. Basically, your 5k pace is right around 5:10/mile give or take a few seconds. So my question is how can you think that 5:15-5:20 is an appropriate threshold pace? It's practically your 5k pace, meaning you are likely racing your workouts, and that is why you are slow.
Again, please take offense at this, I like the drama...
Offensive offender wrote:
Smoove wrote:
4 x 1200 at roughly 5k pace (3:41 average) w/2:15-3:00 rest.
With all offense,
You say you're running roughly 5k pace for this workout, well 3:41 1200s is 15:20 5k pace. You're a low-16 5k guy, not much more. You are running your workouts way too hard, or you don't know what you're doing. Those 1200s are likely faster than your current 3k pace.
Something else I've noticed through reading a lot of your posts on this thread is the fact that you believe your tempo/threshold pace is around 5:15-5:20/mile. This is a major misconception that you need to address if you are really serious about improving. Basically, your 5k pace is right around 5:10/mile give or take a few seconds. So my question is how can you think that 5:15-5:20 is an appropriate threshold pace? It's practically your 5k pace, meaning you are likely racing your workouts, and that is why you are slow.
Again, please take offense at this, I like the drama...
Woow! Great stuff. You look to be standing on the ground with both feet. Good analysis! Thanks!
Offensive offender wrote:
Smoove wrote:
4 x 1200 at roughly 5k pace (3:41 average) w/2:15-3:00 rest.
With all offense,
You say you're running roughly 5k pace for this workout, well 3:41 1200s is 15:20 5k pace. You're a low-16 5k guy, not much more. You are running your workouts way too hard, or you don't know what you're doing. Those 1200s are likely faster than your current 3k pace.
Something else I've noticed through reading a lot of your posts on this thread is the fact that you believe your tempo/threshold pace is around 5:15-5:20/mile. This is a major misconception that you need to address if you are really serious about improving. Basically, your 5k pace is right around 5:10/mile give or take a few seconds. So my question is how can you think that 5:15-5:20 is an appropriate threshold pace? It's practically your 5k pace, meaning you are likely racing your workouts, and that is why you are slow.
Again, please take offense at this, I like the drama...
How is this possible? Smoove who tells he is coaching a lot of runners dont know how to coach himself correct?
My last 5k was 15:41 on the roads a month ago. My most recent race was a 1:11:10 half, which suggests closer to 15:30 shape (or about 4:58 per 1600). The workout was 1200s on the track. Note I wrote that I ran at "roughly" 5k pace. I'm pretty sure that's an accurate statement. Moreover, the purpose of the workout is to achieve a vo2max adaptation. Even if I'm running closer to 3k pace (which I'm not), that's an effective way to effectuate the desired adaptation.
As to threshold pace, my recent half indicates that it should be about 5:25 pace. When I do straight tempo runs, that's about where I end up. When I run cruise intervals on the track, I tend to run a little faster. Of course, I'm sure if I religiously stuck to that pace, some would feel I'm too dogmatic about Daniels pace workouts and would be better served by touching on a wider variety of paces.
As to why I'm not getting faster, I suspect the fact that I'm a few weeks away from 46th birthday has more to do with me not running ever progressively faster.
Smoove wrote:
My last 5k was 15:41 on the roads a month ago. My most recent race was a 1:11:10 half, which suggests closer to 15:30 shape (or about 4:58 per 1600). The workout was 1200s on the track. Note I wrote that I ran at "roughly" 5k pace. I'm pretty sure that's an accurate statement. Moreover, the purpose of the workout is to achieve a vo2max adaptation. Even if I'm running closer to 3k pace (which I'm not), that's an effective way to effectuate the desired adaptation.
As to threshold pace, my recent half indicates that it should be about 5:25 pace. When I do straight tempo runs, that's about where I end up. When I run cruise intervals on the track, I tend to run a little faster. Of course, I'm sure if I religiously stuck to that pace, some would feel I'm too dogmatic about Daniels pace workouts and would be better served by touching on a wider variety of paces.
As to why I'm not getting faster, I suspect the fact that I'm a few weeks away from 46th birthday has more to do with me not running ever progressively faster.
don't respond to the trolls. this guy clearly didn't follow the thread if he thinks you're in 16min 5k shape
I’m guessing that road 5k was short, slow poke! Smooch, king of the 2:37 marathoners. Nope not going to correct that auto correct.
Why not just say 15k pace and leave it at that? Why inject all of the various physiological terms? What value does it add to use a term which 1) people interpret differently and 2) even with proper interpretation require testing to identify?
People have a hard enough time guessing current race pace and even more have trouble actually executing workots at the planned paces, yourself included. Why babble on about v02max, threshold etc? You clearly are not well versed on the underlying science so just stick to practical concepts and just plain training. No need to make the purpose of workouts seem bigger than they are and pretend like they are creating some magical physiological adaptations. You sound ridiculous.
Actually, I did say 15k pace. Then the follownup question was: why 15k pace?
Smoove wrote:
My last 5k was 15:41 on the roads a month ago. My most recent race was a 1:11:10 half, which suggests closer to 15:30 shape (or about 4:58 per 1600). The workout was 1200s on the track. Note I wrote that I ran at "roughly" 5k pace. I'm pretty sure that's an accurate statement. Moreover, the purpose of the workout is to achieve a vo2max adaptation. Even if I'm running closer to 3k pace (which I'm not), that's an effective way to effectuate the desired adaptation.
As to threshold pace, my recent half indicates that it should be about 5:25 pace. When I do straight tempo runs, that's about where I end up. When I run cruise intervals on the track, I tend to run a little faster. Of course, I'm sure if I religiously stuck to that pace, some would feel I'm too dogmatic about Daniels pace workouts and would be better served by touching on a wider variety of paces.
As to why I'm not getting faster, I suspect the fact that I'm a few weeks away from 46th birthday has more to do with me not running ever progressively faster.
Do not use your age as an alibi not running faster! On your way to 46 is nothing special. Guys with that age
have run much faster before. Would have been interesting to see that new coach js coaching you. I am sure he had taken you down sub 1.10 half and 2:25 at marathon.
12x400m should do the trick
Coach JS Apostle wrote:
12x400m should do the trick
Or more precisely 20 x 400m and LT-intervals 800-3000m and the specific J.S long run .
Only enough mileage at right individual pace added.
This is my past week. I'm doing a short cycle for a 10 mile race two weeks from now, before my Boston cycle starts.
M: 10ez
T: 5x600 w/90sec jog (~1:49), 5X400(~69) w/60sec jog, 5ez PM
W: 10ez
T: 11ez, 5ez PM
F: 9ez, 5ez PM
S: 10ez
S: 15, progression (to 5:50min/mile, 6:27avg)
Total was 90mi. Best week I've had since I raced a marathon in early Nov.