To have 25% at faster than MP per week for a 120 mpw runner would be 30 miles per week! That would be like three 10M tempos at MP or better. I find it hard to believe that many Americans are doing close to that. I'd think that it would be more like 15-20 miles at most, with maybe a 5 mile tempo, 5-6 miles of mile repeats or 800s, and maybe 8-10M at MP during the long run or a race.
Nice work on the Sunday 20-mile long run with all those sub 5:30 miles! That's a good indicator of marathon specific fitness!
forcerunner wrote:
Last week:
M - 12.25 / 6.25
T - 6 / 8 x 1mi with 90s jog: 5:14, 5:11, 5:11, 5:08, 5:09, 5:07, 5:04, 5:05
W - 20 @ 7:01/mi / 5mi on grass
R - 7 / 7.5
F - AM 6mi of fartlek on hilly .75 loop / 5mi on treadmill at 5% grade
S - 9.2 / 4.2
S - 4 warm up, 3 x 15min uptempo + 5min harder, cool down to 20. Paces on segments were 5:27, 5:26, 5:27 for 15min and 5:11, 5:10, 5:08 for 5min. Overall run avg 6:06 pace. / 5 with strides
Total: 136
Last Week:
M - 12 / 6
T - 6 / 12 x 1k @ 3:03 avg with 60-70s jog between
W - 20 @ 7:14 avg / 5
R - 10 / 4
F - 4.5 miles of hill fartlek / 8
S - 8 / 3.5
S - 15k @ 5:08 avg / 5
Total: 128
Had a good workout on Tuesday, not a good one on Friday, and a decent effort on Sunday. Was solo the entire race on Sunday but the pace felt fairly relaxed.
I'm very interested to see how this plays out. Your workouts are all solid (I should probably say that they are great workouts for 99% of the running population, but for guys shooting for 2:20, they are solid), but the overall volume is really fantastic. I think if you're able to go sub 2:20, I think it will be off of that total volume more than the workouts.
How much longer until race day?
Thanks! Less than a month to go. I've got my last long time on feet run this week with two more longer MP sessions. A 4mi turkey trot on Thanksgiving then taper time!
Any update forcerunner? Excited to see how this turns out for you!
I'm still running a turkey trot tomorrow then only 10 days out! Flying to CA that Thursday before the race. Not too many sessions to go. Here are the past two weeks:
11/6 to 11/12
M - 12 / 6
T - 6 / 14 with 5 x 2min hill 15 x 20s hill
W - 24 @ 6:32 avg. 6 laps of four mile loop to practice nutrition / 4pm
R - 12 / 5
F - 8 / 8 with 15 x 1min on 1min off
S - 8 / 5
S - 12 / 9 with 5k XC 16:03
Total: 135
11/13 to 11/20
M - 12.5 / 7.5
T - 11 with 6 miles of fartlek / 6
W - 12 / 6
R - 7 / 6
F - 8 x half mile with 1:30-1:45 jog @ 2:24 avg / 6
S - 8 / 3
S - 20 with 10 @ 5:14 avg / no double
Total 116
I'm feeling pretty good. Dealing with a little back tightness and lingering plantar pain. I feel pretty confident. One thing I'm thinking about is where I'm going to buy the bottles I'll use during the race. I was thinking of just getting those mini water bottles and using those, but does anyone have any suggestions on where to get some throwaway bottles besides those?
I know Nathan makes some smaller squeeze bottle, but I'd go with the small water bottles and just mix in your stuff. Seems cheap and easy and effective.
RE: How many miles can you run at Marathon Pace? 11/22/2017 2:40PM - in reply to SaladDressing
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If you are after honest opinions, which I assume you are since you started and kept this thread alive, then as a coach who has coached several sub 2:20 marathoners here is what I see.
After reading this thread I don't see a sub 2:20 being in the cards. With a 67:26 half marathon PR and given the long runs you have done this cycle I think the last rolling 10k at CIM will likely eat you up.
While the mileage is there and speed/quality work probably sufficient, you simply didn't build the physical and mental strength and endurance you'll need to continue to pound out 5:20 miles the last 6-8 miles of this race.
I see no faster paced long run in your work nor any extended periods (30+ mins) late in long run when you had to keep MP for mile after mile while fatigued. I don't see you handling the 5:20 pace the last 8 miles well as a result. Hopefully you'll prove me wrong.
I would have liked to see a nice 21 miler in there with paces down in the 5:40-5:50 range steadily the whole way. And a 21-22 miler with the first 12-13 easy and the last 6-7 or even 8 miles at marathon pace. Over a 25k at marathon pace run with a few mile warm-up and cool-down (i.e. Hansons).
Most all your long runs were either at jog pace for you, or with relatively short repeats at marathon, pace. The marathon is a long grind, mile after mile and no breaks after just 15 mins at race pace.
When training for the marathon you need to think about how to get your body prepared to run at marathon pace effectively when glycogen levels are low. And how to prepared the mind to deal with that. Not sure what you have done does that.
Anyways that's my honest opinion. Maybe use this as motivation to prove me wrong if you think I'm off base, but if I am right and the last 6-8 unfolds like I think it will, come back and report and make these changes for the next one
What does the next week and a half look like for you?
While I share your concerns about whether the OP's workouts demonstrate the necessary fitness to run the desired time, I don't think necessarily agree that he needed to go much longer at MP or to donhiablong runs at a harder (but slower than marathon) pace.
That is certainly one approach, but another approach is to mix some tempo intervals into your long run. OP has done some of that, but not at paces that were particularly well matched to his goal time, and not enough of them came late in the effort, from what I recall.
But the flip side that leaves me thinking that 2:20 is a reasonable goal is that the overall volume has been really good and he did have at least one extended run right at goal pace. Plus, my guess is he is doing most of these workouts alone, which makes them tougher to do. So between the heavy volume and the solo efforts, I would expect for him to pop a little bit on race day when he is tapered and surrounded by lots of people near his pace (although it will be easy for him to get sucked out at 2:18 pace as I expect a couple of dozen guys to go out right at that pace for their OTQ and the time bonus).
Either way, we are both pulling for you OP. Race day magic will make things feel easy early on. Resist that urge to go with that sub 2:19 crowd and be confident that your huge volume will carry the day.
Hoping I am wrong but ... wrote:
the last rolling 10k at CIM will likely eat you up.
I have no comments on the rest of this, but the last 10k of CIM are almost pancake flat. There's one bridge, and that's it.
Looks solid man! Good luck!
Re: bottles. The cheap plastic bottles with squirt tops are usually good...can be a bit bigger at 18oz-20oz but I usually only fill them about halfway (and you want it heavy/stable enough so it doesn't blow off the table if there is wind). Then be sure to decorate your bottle in a unique way so it stands out and is easy to see and grab off the tables.
Another thing you can do: tape gels/extra calories to some of your bottles.
The first half of CIM is rolling (slightly downhill though) and then the last 10km (and most of the whole 2nd half) is pretty flat. When I ran there we were out in 1:08:20 and it came back to bite me hard in the last 10km as I bonked hard and slowed to 6:00 pace. As you already know, maintaining pace in the last 10km is everything to a good marathon!
Sage - just curious, are you still planning to run CIM this year?
Smooth, Sage, etc.
I was wondering how you feel about "progressing" marathon workouts and the LT sessions performed on the Q2 day. I have studied a lot of plans, Hansons, etc., but it seems that at times these 2 x 5 miles, 3 x 3 miles, 1k and mile repeats are almost scattered randomly throughout the program instead of them being progressed session to session.
Is there a clear value in progressing them? It seems to be logical, but harder to find in some marathon programs.
Daniels does a progression of the threshold work. His first real marathon-centric workout is 5 x 1 mile at tempo pace with an hour run after that. Then he will go on to 2 or 3 x 2 miles. Eventually you go to 4 x 1 mile, 5:00 rest, 3 x 1 mile. Then 4 x 2 miles. Then 5 easy, 3 tempo, 5 easy 3 tempo.
It's a very good progression and builds upon itself.
He does a lot less marathon pace work than most others though, and no real "fast finishes". So it's not for everyone, but I've never felt under-prepared. The 2 up, 2 x 2 miles at tempo, 10 miles easy, 20 minutes at tempo, 2 miles down workout (and a couple of similar ones) is a beast, and when you finish a cycle with some of those, you feel well prepared.
Anyone else have a good profession of marathon specific stuff?
To the other person that asked: I'm not running CIM this year. I had signed up originally... but honestly after only 12 weeks coming off that disaster of a slog at the UTMB 100-miler I haven't been able to get any "flat speed" on the roads/track back yet. Turns out mountain-100-milers are not like sub 2:19 marathon training. Right now the plan is to still go for a sub 2:19:00 at Houston though. In my experience it is a much better transition to start off with 10km/5km/half marathon racing and training and then "move up" to the marathon, than it is to "come down to the marathon" from ultra marathons (especially mountain trail ones). In terms of marathon workout progression I can say this (having run in Hansons program). What usually progresses is the pace. For example, early on in a cycle we did 5 x 2-miles at goal M.P. (and 3 x 3 miles). Then later on we do the same workouts 10 sec/mile faster. Finally, the 2 x 6 mile always comes at the end and "peak of the hardest training phase" around the 16-mile "simulator run." Sprinkled in there were 1600m and 1km repeats at 15-20 sec/mile faster than M.P. I didn't always agree with it - and certainly overtrained at times and raced pretty inconsistently. Then certain longer runs (workouts) progress in nature with negative split 20 mile long runs (i.e. miles 15-18 at goal MP, with many miles in the 2nd half sub 6:00 or sub 5:40), and workouts like an "8-mile Tempo Run" where the first 4 miles at at M.P. and the last 4 miles are 5/sec mile faster. I think naturally as the body gets more fit and can handle the workout load you are just more likely to want to smash certain workouts and close fast (or average a slightly faster pace). Other than that we build up mileage so there is a high average (starts of at maybe 70-80mpw and builds to 120-140+ for several weeks/a month)...last 2 week taper mileage might drop to 90-100 and 70-80
TouchdownJonny wrote:
Smooth, Sage, etc.
I was wondering how you feel about "progressing" marathon workouts and the LT sessions performed on the Q2 day. I have studied a lot of plans, Hansons, etc., but it seems that at times these 2 x 5 miles, 3 x 3 miles, 1k and mile repeats are almost scattered randomly throughout the program instead of them being progressed session to session.
Is there a clear value in progressing them? It seems to be logical, but harder to find in some marathon programs.
Good thread. Gives a bit of insight to marathon training
Sage, how has your "theory" evolved from your Hanson's days?