sagan fan wrote:
Real Cyclist wrote:Even Andre Greipel has apologized for initially saying Sagan caused the crash, and you still don't believe basic physics? What's kind of cyclist are you? A Cat 6?
I am not saying Sagan caused the crash. I am questioning that right elbow flick. It just didn't look right in that situation.
If you are only a Cat 6 level cyclist, of course you won't understand.
Real Cyclist wrote:
sagan fan wrote:I am not saying Sagan caused the crash. I am questioning that right elbow flick. It just didn't look right in that situation.
If you are only a Cat 6 level cyclist, of course you won't understand.
No real bike racer would refer to anyone as a "Cat x level cyclist". So clearly you're either a cat 5 wannabe or some weekend club warrior who could only dream of racing.
Take that wrote:
.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DD66OH2VwAEUn05.jpg
Shouldn't have
actual cyclist wrote:
If you are only a Cat 6 level cyclist, of course you won't understand.
No real bike racer would refer to anyone as a "Cat x level cyclist". So clearly you're either a cat 5 wannabe or some weekend club warrior who could only dream of racing.[/quote]
He might even be a tricycler. Two wheels are too dangerous.
sagan fan wrote:
What you seem to be suggesting is that Sagan was somehow supported by Cavendish on his right. When Sagan lost this "support" after Cavendish fell down, he veered towards the barrier. That's just ridiculous.
Sagan wasn't "leaning toward the barriers" he was leaning into Cavendish after Cav initiated contact.
Have you actually had any contact while on a bike? Once you contact each other like that, a bit of correction is needed to maintain your balance. At 45mph it doesn't take much to knock guys just a little out of balance.
Sagan as a World Champion should know better than to risk going on the inside, he risked he lost. At least the sprint finishes will be quieter.
Bethany, thank you for the nice letter.
Race jury blames Sagan. They kicked him out.[/quote]
jeez, you came here to say what
1. everyone knows
2. is not your personal stance
that was easy dude.
SEDave wrote:
At 45mph it doesn't take much to knock guys just a little out of balance.
Bikes are actually more stable at faster speeds. It is much easier to knock over a slow moving bike than a fast moving one. You should know that.
SEDave wrote:
sagan fan wrote:Cavendish was between Sagan and the barrier. How did he manage to knock Sagan towards the barrier? The physics of that just don't make any sense.
Sagan was leaning towards the barriers as Cav was leaning on him. Once Cav goes down Sagan is leaning towards the barriers so he goes towards the barriers a little before he can correct himself.
And a couple of pages back someone was claiming that all cyclists in front have the right to do anything and it's always the guy in back's fault. That's so blatantly wrong in cycling. The rider in front can be DQed or relegated if he deviates from his line (it has to usually be pretty obvious) or obviously causes the rear rider to crash by squishing them into the barriers. To me this was not that situation. Cav did not have a clear lane to move up next to the barriers. And Sagan was moving a bit laterally as the guys around him were. Cav was never level with Sagan and to me this is mostly on Cav. It's a shame the ruled the way they did. I get relegating Sagan for the stage, but the full DQ from the tour seems very harsh.
Long before the elbow Sagan went from center of the road to the right. As he was passed by Demare he probably thought "no more" and closed the door. Two riders, Demare and Cav, were moving up the right side of the road at nearly the same speed. The first one made it, second not so much and that is what caused the crash. It is obvious from the helicopter. Game was over long before the red barriers people are focusing on and the elbow.
I agree on the relegation, a little surprised at dismissal. But who knows what shenanegians happened earlier.
+1
The line not the elbow wrote:
SEDave wrote:Sagan was leaning towards the barriers as Cav was leaning on him. Once Cav goes down Sagan is leaning towards the barriers so he goes towards the barriers a little before he can correct himself.
And a couple of pages back someone was claiming that all cyclists in front have the right to do anything and it's always the guy in back's fault. That's so blatantly wrong in cycling. The rider in front can be DQed or relegated if he deviates from his line (it has to usually be pretty obvious) or obviously causes the rear rider to crash by squishing them into the barriers. To me this was not that situation. Cav did not have a clear lane to move up next to the barriers. And Sagan was moving a bit laterally as the guys around him were. Cav was never level with Sagan and to me this is mostly on Cav. It's a shame the ruled the way they did. I get relegating Sagan for the stage, but the full DQ from the tour seems very harsh.
Long before the elbow Sagan went from center of the road to the right. As he was passed by Demare he probably thought "no more" and closed the door. Two riders, Demare and Cav, were moving up the right side of the road at nearly the same speed. The first one made it, second not so much and that is what caused the crash. It is obvious from the helicopter. Game was over long before the red barriers people are focusing on and the elbow.
I agree on the relegation, a little surprised at dismissal. But who knows what shenanegians happened earlier.
+1
Definitely about Sagan moving to the right. The elbow didn't cause the crash because Cavendish was already going down.
I think what actually caused the crash was when the BMC guy (Greipel??) moved quickly to his right, pushing the Cofidis guy far to the right. This pushed Demare and Sagan to the right just as Cavendish is starting to come up on Sagan's right. I think without this very sudden move, there wouldn't have been so much lateral movement and the crash never would have happened.
I'm not sure if Sagan should have done more to avoid it, but Greipel swerved in a way that easily could have caused a crash directly, and did indeed cause a crash indirectly. He should also be sanctioned.
What do all these guys know though:
gloria wrote:
Sagan as a World Champion should know better than to risk going on the inside, he risked he lost. At least the sprint finishes will be quieter.
Bethany, thank you for the nice letter.
Ahem, Cavendish--Olympic Medalist and winner of 30 TdF stages--was the rider on the inside not Sagan.
The line not the elbow wrote:
SEDave wrote:Sagan was leaning towards the barriers as Cav was leaning on him. Once Cav goes down Sagan is leaning towards the barriers so he goes towards the barriers a little before he can correct himself.
And a couple of pages back someone was claiming that all cyclists in front have the right to do anything and it's always the guy in back's fault. That's so blatantly wrong in cycling. The rider in front can be DQed or relegated if he deviates from his line (it has to usually be pretty obvious) or obviously causes the rear rider to crash by squishing them into the barriers. To me this was not that situation. Cav did not have a clear lane to move up next to the barriers. And Sagan was moving a bit laterally as the guys around him were. Cav was never level with Sagan and to me this is mostly on Cav. It's a shame the ruled the way they did. I get relegating Sagan for the stage, but the full DQ from the tour seems very harsh.
Long before the elbow Sagan went from center of the road to the right. As he was passed by Demare he probably thought "no more" and closed the door. Two riders, Demare and Cav, were moving up the right side of the road at nearly the same speed. The first one made it, second not so much and that is what caused the crash. It is obvious from the helicopter. Game was over long before the red barriers people are focusing on and the elbow.
I agree on the relegation, a little surprised at dismissal. But who knows what shenanegians happened earlier.
Sagan had the right of way, not Cav.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QE97iUvSHk0not in the gap wrote:
We all have a thing called FORWARD vision. So you can see MUCH more than you indicate in your post. Cyclist know how to glance AHEAD their EYES LOOK DOWNWARD so he may have seen more than you think.
Those looking directly in front cannot use the excuse that they guy ahead of them should have used eyes in the back of their heads.
The red cushion is something Cav failed to realize was directly in the path he chose to ride along. He chose on his own--see the slow motion video links--to fall to the right and into the wall rather push to his left and into a crash with Sagan.
Not Sagan's fault. Cav's fault for creating a situation. Cav was crashing regardless of anything else happening in the race.
Maybe lack of oxygen causes you to not be aware of your surroundings but these guys know very well what is happening around them. And can even communicate. A type of situational awareness is visibible when you are inside that mass moving along at the same speed. Ever heard someone say " I saw him come up on my...."
Let's try to consider just the facts for a minute.
1. Lotto is leading out the sprint on the left side of the road.
2. Kristoff then opens up the sprint and swings right with Bouhanni, then Sagan, Demare and Cav on his wheel
3. Demare then starts passing Sagan on the right with Cav on his wheel, while kristoff continues to move the entire group to the right.
4. As soon as Demare passes Sagan, Sagan moves right to get on his wheel, closing the door on Cav.
5. Cav continues to Sprint though the small gap rather than checking up.
6. Cavendish and Sagan make contact with each other and Cav begins to go down.
7. Sagan's elbow comes out in the direction of Cav with his hands remaining on the handlebars.
And pretty much everyone stops watching here and misses this
8. Demare swings drastically back to the left forcing Bouhanni to grab the brakes hard (you can see this from front and overhead shot)
Now here is what I would do if I were on the race jury (your opinion may vary but that's why it's a jury instead of just one person).
Sagan - relegation to back of group for irregular sprint. No time penalty; no points penalty other than no longer receiving the points he would've had for second today.
Demare - relegation to back of group for irregular sprint. No time penalty; no points penalty other than no longer receiving the points he would've had for the win today.
ABSOLUTELY NO NEED TO DQ ANYONE FROM THE TOUR FOR WHAT HAPPENED IN THE SPRINT - Even if it had been someone with history like Bouhanni, or a complete no-name that had taken out Cav it still was just a racing incident in my judgement.
Sorry wrote:
not in the gap wrote:https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QE97iUvSHk0We all have a thing called FORWARD vision. So you can see MUCH more than you indicate in your post. Cyclist know how to glance AHEAD their EYES LOOK DOWNWARD so he may have seen more than you think.
Those looking directly in front cannot use the excuse that they guy ahead of them should have used eyes in the back of their heads.
The red cushion is something Cav failed to realize was directly in the path he chose to ride along. He chose on his own--see the slow motion video links--to fall to the right and into the wall rather push to his left and into a crash with Sagan.
Not Sagan's fault. Cav's fault for creating a situation. Cav was crashing regardless of anything else happening in the race.
Maybe lack of oxygen causes you to not be aware of your surroundings but these guys know very well what is happening around them. And can even communicate. A type of situational awareness is visibible when you are inside that mass moving along at the same speed. Ever heard someone say " I saw him come up on my...."
Cavendish: "I saw the pack rolling to the right but decide to try to shoot the gap anyway."
You saw Demare cut off Bouhanni too. And Bouhanni hit the brakes and move away from the rider.
But he is french so no DQ there.
The line again wrote:
You saw Demare cut off Bouhanni too. And Bouhanni hit the brakes and move away from the rider.
But he is french so no DQ there.
I totally agree. The French can't win anything so they resort to banning Sagan.
So many questions going through my head about people getting preferential treatment.
Does Demare get preferential treatment because he's french? - almost certainly
Does Cav get preferential treatment because Cookson is head of UCI? - probably not
Does Cav get preferential treatment because his team sponsor is also a big sponsor of the tour? - probably not
Does Sagan get preferential treatment because of the rainbow bands? - probably sometimes, but not today obviously
Is Sagan at a disadvantage by not being from a major cycling country likely to have a countryman on the race jury? - possibly
